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RE: Matt 24 study (cont'd) - 7/7/2008 2:53:53 PM
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JazZeke
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The greater part of the Old Testament prophets declared an imminent day of the Lord and then imperceptibly segued into the eschatological consummation or the ultimate restoration of Israel and pacification of its enemies; they made no note of the great passage of time between the two events. The best description I’ve found of this doctrine, which is also found in the aforementioned text in Deuteronomy, is “prophetic eschatological intrusion”. Let me quoted from Deuteronomy:
“To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.” Deut 32:35KJV
I’ll quote from John Gill, Matthew Henry and Adam Clarke on their commentary as to what vengeance and calamity was “at hand” and to come upon Israel in “haste”, the calamity Moses was referring to.
quote:
John Gill-INTRODUCTION TO DEUTERONOMY 32
… wherefore, for the rejection of the Messiah and the, persecution of his followers, they would be abhorred of God, De 32:19; who would show his resentment by the rejection of them, by the calling of the Gentiles, and by bringing the nation of the Romans upon them, De 32:20…. whereby utter ruin and destruction in all its shapes would be brought upon them, De 32:22; and, were it not for the insolence of their adversaries, would be entirely destroyed, being such a foolish and unwise people, which appears by not observing what the enemies of the Messiah themselves allow, that there is no rock like him, whom they despised, De 32:26; which enemies are described, and the vengeance reserved for them pointed out, De 32:32; and the song closed with promises of grace and mercy to the Lord's people, and wrath and ruin to his and their enemies, on which account all are called upon to rejoice in the latter day, De 32:36
Matthew Henry-DEUTERONOMY CHAP. XXXII.
In this chapter we have….4. A prediction of the wasting destroying judgments which God would bring upon them for their sins, in which God is here justified by the many aggravations of their impieties (v. 19-33). 5. A promise of the destruction of their enemies and oppressors at last, and the glorious deliverance of a remnant of Israel (v. 36-43).
Adam Clarke-Deuteronomy Chapter 32
The prophetical and historical song of Moses, showing forth the nature of God's doctrine…. Gracious purposes in their behalf, mixed with reproaches for their manifold idolatries, and threatenings against his enemies, 36-42. A promise of salvation to the Gentiles…
Clearly, the expositors above make a mockery of Preterism’s paradigm built upon temporal indicators. According to Gill the calamity that was “at hand” and coming upon them in “haste” were the events of 70 AD and the calling of the Gentiles—almost 1500 years hence. According to Henry the calamity was inclusive of all judgment upon Israel and their ultimate restoration and pacification of its enemies; the latter having yet to take place. And Clarke also confirms the imminent judgments predicted by Moses as encompassing the blessings and curses that were a result of the salvation to the Gentiles at the first advent. Accordingly, Yahweh and His prophets have a different interpretation of “imminence” than Preterism. Obviously, the scope of temporal indicators must conform to Yahweh’s perception of time noted in 2 Peter 3:8 and not Preterism’s paradigm.
Zephaniah forewarned Judah that the day of the Lord is at hand—the imminent judgment at the hands of the Chaldeans (Zep. 1:7) and then imperceptibly segued into the eschatological consummation, the ultimate restoration of Israel and the pacification of its enemies (Zep. 1:2-18; 3:8). Here we have prophetic eschatological intrusion, the prediction of the distant consummation of the Messianic kingdom intruding into an imminent event, which is clearly the doctrine of Deuteronomy 32:2 and a hermeneutic. Clearly this method of the prophets is typological and associated the day of the Lord in their time with the eschatological, antitypical day predicted in the New Testament. Joel, Amos, Isaiah as well as other Old Testament prophets verify that temporal indicators, such as “near” or “at hand”, are not reliable elements upon which to build eschatological doctrine (2 Peter 3:8-9). (This also supports that Historicalism and the “year for a day” principle.)
The New Testament perspective of the day of the Lord is the future. The only reconciliation of the two perspectives concerning the day of the Lord in both the Old and New Testaments is in interpreting the ancient events as typical of the anagogical or eschatological events at the return of Christ, which also underscores the event in 70 AD as typological. This reconciliation precludes multiple fulfillments such as any and all tribulations which the people of Yahweh may face at the hands of the world, which has been the bane of many of the paradigms including classical Historicalism. Where it is upheld that Yahweh chastises the sons and daughters (Heb. 12:6) manifest as hardships, the intercession dubbed the day of the Lord represents the definite time of Yahweh’s judgment drawing a dispensation to an end as the scriptures verify; from our perspective the previous events such as 70 AD are shadows of the theophany at Christ’s return. The judgment that preceded the transition from the first temple age to the second temple age and again at the first advent, the transition from the second temple to that built without hands were typical of the anagogical day of the Lord. This reasoning is also supported by the Olivet Discourse and Christ’s use of the same methodology of the prophets (Matt. 5:17). He also linked the nearness of a typological judgment upon Jerusalem, the events of 70 AD, with his distant eschatological return and this is substantiated by the event concerning the times of the Gentiles.
JazZeke
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 9/2/2008 2:23:15 PM
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DanJames
Posts: 679
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
Let's see, in the last four posts, all the Preterists have abandoned defending their eschatology and instead are pursuing side issues on the periphery.
Now back to my question:
When are you (all) going to show
how it all already happened?
So far the attempt to say it happens on one word - "soon," "near," or even "this" just hasn't cut it. If you want to build a coherent eschatology, you're going to have to incorporate Daniel, the Olivet Discourses, Revelation, and Paul's letters to the Thessalonians as the main columns and beams upon which to support your structure.
Propping up your eschatology on passages which are not in context just means your structure will be shaky.
It looks like this hasn't been discussed in a while, and for good reason. This post here shows exactly why no issue (especially one as hotly debated as Preterism) should be confined to one, all-purpose thread. There are not less than 4 issues addressed in this one post not to include the comment on "issues on the periphery". Books have been written on the topic of a 70 AD fulfillment of the coming of Christ in judgment, so it's no wonder that the author of this post is so vehement. There's too much to discuss. Anyway, I want to know what the truth is, so let's discuss it.
Christ said that the pharisees would see the coming of the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power and coming on the clouds of heaven. Since the clouds are an OT symbol of judgment, he basically said that the pharisees would see the judgment. I have come to believe that this was fulfilled when the pharisees saw the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD during the 3 1/2 year war with the Beast which was Rome (or more specifically, Emperor Nero). Any thoughts on this?
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 9/2/2008 3:47:57 PM
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MrFribbles
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[quoteAny thoughts on this? ][/quote]
I'm hopping in on this (for some reason, reading 74 pages on the subject doesn't strike my fancy), but I was wondering: do you believe Christ will come again? If not, how do you believe this world will end?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 12:47:33 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Any thoughts on this? ]
I'm hopping in on this (for some reason, reading 74 pages on the subject doesn't strike my fancy), but I was wondering: do you believe Christ will come again? If not, how do you believe this world will end?
I'll confess, I didn't read anything but the last page to get a context for where the conversation was coming from. Apparently it hasn't gone anywhere for a while.
I do believe that Christ will come again. I believe that He'll come back with a shout and the dead will rise and we who are alive will meet Him in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord. I think that is all that we have yet to look forward to this side of judgment.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 4:16:28 PM
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MrFribbles
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
I do believe that Christ will come again. I believe that He'll come back with a shout and the dead will rise and we who are alive will meet Him in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord. I think that is all that we have yet to look forward to this side of judgment.
Well, if that's your view, then I certainly have no qualms with it. It's not one I personally ascribe to, but then, I'm not really sure what I personally ascribe to when ti comes to the end-times, except that, as you say, Christ is coming back.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 6:02:00 PM
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DanJames
Posts: 679
Joined: 12/13/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
I do believe that Christ will come again. I believe that He'll come back with a shout and the dead will rise and we who are alive will meet Him in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord. I think that is all that we have yet to look forward to this side of judgment.
Well, if that's your view, then I certainly have no qualms with it. It's not one I personally ascribe to, but then, I'm not really sure what I personally ascribe to when ti comes to the end-times, except that, as you say, Christ is coming back.
It's not a thoroughly thought out position, but I think it's the one that makes the most sense based on the fact that much of the prophecies are described as being "near" (perhaps 40 years?), unlike some of the Old Testament prophecies which were described as being "far off" (400 something years). I don't want to believe something that is not true, so if it can be demonstrated with scripture that the view I have just presented is wrong, I, Mr. Fribbles, have qualms with it.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2008 2:32:11 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 499
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JazZeke
As to the 70th week, the context, language and symbolism expounded by the very words of the texts concerns the covenant that Yahshua confirms at his advent, the end of the sacrifices and oblations due to said covenant and the resulting abominations of the high priests for their rejection of their Messiah.
I take some exception in saying that Jesus put forth with military might or strength any covenant which is limited in time.
While many people go on about how Jesus "confirmed" this or that, that word in translation does us a great disservice. While it may have worked in Shakespear's time, the present day connotation allows too many to make gabar mean something positive.
However, in the never-ending debate over eschatology, Preterists need a nice warm fuzzy word like 'confirm' to say it's all been done...
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 9/9/2008 5:49:43 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: JazZeke
As to the 70th week, the context, language and symbolism expounded by the very words of the texts concerns the covenant that Yahshua confirms at his advent, the end of the sacrifices and oblations due to said covenant and the resulting abominations of the high priests for their rejection of their Messiah.
I take some exception in saying that Jesus put forth with military might or strength any covenant which is limited in time.
While many people go on about how Jesus "confirmed" this or that, that word in translation does us a great disservice. While it may have worked in Shakespear's time, the present day connotation allows too many to make gabar mean something positive.
However, in the never-ending debate over eschatology, Preterists need a nice warm fuzzy word like 'confirm' to say it's all been done...
I don't feel like I particularly "need" any nice or fuzzy words. I want to understand what has happened and what is yet to happen. If the book of the Revelation and other unveilings refer to something that happened a long time ago, I'd like to know it. I don't particularly want to have a warm fuzzy, I want to know. So tell me why I need to believe that Nero was not the beast, and that his 3 1/2 year war was not the 3 1/2 year war of the Revelation, and why another temple needs to be built so it can be destroyed in fulfillment of prophecy.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 9/9/2008 9:07:16 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
I do believe that Christ will come again. I believe that He'll come back with a shout and the dead will rise and we who are alive will meet Him in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord. I think that is all that we have yet to look forward to this side of judgment.
Well that's all great and it will all come to pass, but it won't come to pass until the Restrainer is removed from the midst and the Man of Lawlessness is revealed.
As the anti-Christ will desecrate the Temple (2Th 2:4) with the Abomination (actually erected by the false prophet according to God in Rev 13) and Jesus said this would happen in the Holy place which as a place is in the Temple as the Bible defines that term.
So Nero is not the anti-Christ who will come, but he certainly may have been one of the five 'heads' who have fallen as the end-times comes to be because Nero never stood in the Temple nor did he have any image of himself erected there.
This still has to happen and it will happen at the midpoint of the one 'seven.'
P.S. I am unaware of any prophecy which stipulates that the third Temple has to be destroyed. The only prophecy concerning destruction of the sanctuary is in Daniel 9:26 and it was fulfilled in A.D. 70 by the Romans. This act of destruction points the way to the origin of the still future "ruler who will come." Nero committed suicide in A.D. 68.
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RE: Matt 24 study (cont'd) - 9/17/2008 10:29:24 PM
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ChristopherJ
Posts: 228
Joined: 11/30/2007
From: Canada (The True North Strong and Free!)
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When I first got saved about 18 years ago, I attended a church that was PDF in its eschatology (premillennial, dispensational and futurist). That was all I knew. However, as I studied the Scriptures on my own, studied church history, and read up on all of the different interpretations of the millennium and Revelation, I came to the conclusion that whatever I would believe, it would not be futuristic or dispensational, as those two seemed the most unbliblically sound of the bunch. I like both the preterist and continuous historicist positions on Revelation, and like both the postmill and amill positions. I am currently reading and studying through - verse by verse - the Book of Revelation, and just finished reading and studying Daniel 9:24-27, and Matthew 24. Here is a quote from my latest posted blog:
We have established that Daniel’s 70th week began at the inauguration of Jesus’ ministry in 27 AD, when He was anointed “Messiah the Prince” by John the Baptist. In the midst of this prophetic week, three and a half years later, the “Messiah was cut off” – that is, Jesus was crucified, in 30 AD... in my humble opinion, there is no solid Scriptural evidence to believe in a future ‘seven year tribulation’.
I would love to hear some feedback from the rest of you - especially those who may be PDF in your theology (premillennial, dispensational or futurist). Looking forward to discussing these things with you.
(You can check out my posts on Daniel 9:24-27 at: http://chris-jordan.blogspot.com/).
_____________________________
Chris Jordan
www.beausejourchurch.ca
http://thelandofpromise.blogspot.com/
(visit our website for free MP3 audio sermons, sermon notes, articles, devotionals and more).
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RE: Matt 24 study (cont'd) - 9/21/2008 9:31:07 AM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 499
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ
We have established that Daniel’s 70th week began at the inauguration of Jesus’ ministry in 27 AD, when He was anointed “Messiah the Prince” by John the Baptist.
No you haven't.
Now I know of a reputable author who has shown that Jesus' baptism could be one of the fulfillments of when the Messiah would come which would complete the seven and sixty-two 'seven's as Gabriel foretod -
BUT that is not the only possible date.
The one I favor is Jesus' arrival in Jerusalem on Palm Sunday. Jesus says that day was a specical day so much so that if the people weren't rejoicing that the rocks would sing out!
I think we ought to pay attention to what Jesus says...
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RE: Matt 24 study (cont'd) - 10/7/2008 9:40:11 PM
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Ntech
Posts: 71
Joined: 5/3/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ
When I first got saved about 18 years ago, I attended a church that was PDF in its eschatology (premillennial, dispensational and futurist). That was all I knew. However, as I studied the Scriptures on my own, studied church history, and read up on all of the different interpretations of the millennium and Revelation, I came to the conclusion that whatever I would believe, it would not be futuristic or dispensational, as those two seemed the most unbliblically sound of the bunch. I like both the preterist and continuous historicist positions on Revelation, and like both the postmill and amill positions. I am currently reading and studying through - verse by verse - the Book of Revelation, and just finished reading and studying Daniel 9:24-27, and Matthew 24. Here is a quote from my latest posted blog:
We have established that Daniel’s 70th week began at the inauguration of Jesus’ ministry in 27 AD, when He was anointed “Messiah the Prince” by John the Baptist. In the midst of this prophetic week, three and a half years later, the “Messiah was cut off” – that is, Jesus was crucified, in 30 AD... in my humble opinion, there is no solid Scriptural evidence to believe in a future ‘seven year tribulation’.
I would love to hear some feedback from the rest of you - especially those who may be PDF in your theology (premillennial, dispensational or futurist). Looking forward to discussing these things with you.
(You can check out my posts on Daniel 9:24-27 at: http://chris-jordan.blogspot.com/).
Well, Let me point out how your premise is wrong. The 70th week never happened. Why??? You never considered the curse of Malachi.
Now let me point this curse out to you here.
Malachi 4.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Did this happen? According to Jesus Christ it did.
Matthew 17
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
Now when it comes to curses Judaism has a section of the law specifically devoted to them. Leviticus 26 has the details in a nutshell. Also known as the old covenant it details the benefits of entering into a relationship with the God of the Jews. And the punishments when you break the laws and fall away from it.
A top level Leviticus 26 curse details that your country is conquered and your cities destroyed. The people are killed or taken away as slaves. However, no matter how long the curse it is guarenteed that once it is over the country will be restored. And if you look at the history of the Jews over the past 2000 years it appears it is following that plan.
So then the question is "Where is the declaration of the curse and it's length of time?" And I found that in the book of Hosea. The entire book in general but chapters 5 and 6 detail it specifically.
Hosea 5.
13 When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah saw his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.
14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.
Hosea 6
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.
Leviticus 26
28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
If you look at the verbage used there in 5-14 and Leviticus 26-28 you can see that this is a prophecy that Israel and Judah would trigger a top level Leviticus 26 curse. But the length of time being 2 days makes no sense until you read it in context with 2nd Peter 3-8 which is derived from Psalms 90.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Those days are 1000 year periods of time. The curse of Malachi is 2000 years long.
Now read Matthew 27 and ask yourself what the fuss was all about. That was when the curse was applied. And that was the end of the 69th week.
< Message edited by Ntech -- 10/8/2008 10:44:22 PM >
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RE: Matt 24 study (cont'd) - 10/16/2008 9:39:00 PM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 58
Joined: 4/12/2005
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To All
With regard to Daniels 70th week. Please read the text. Dan 9:24 - Seventy sevens are decreed for your people (Israel) and your holy city (Jerusalem) to: 1. finish transgressions, 2. put an end to sin, 3. atone for wickedness, 4. to bring in everlasting righteousness, 5. to seal up vision and prophecy, 6. and to anoint the most holy.
Daniels people (Israel) and Daniels holy city (Jerusalem) have not fulfilled any of the above requirements for the 70th week to have occurred. If none have been fulfilled, this 70th week is then still in the future.
Montana Marv
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RE: Matt 24 study (cont'd) - 10/17/2008 4:02:22 PM
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Brenyada
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Prov. 10:13 "On the lips of discerning, wisdom is found....".
Prophesy is very hard to understand without intense submission and study. I believe lack of discernment of scripture and lack of HIS wisdom can lead to preterism.
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RE: Matt 24 study (cont'd) - 10/17/2008 4:53:58 PM
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Brenyada
Posts: 15
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Brenyada
Prov. 10:13 "On the lips of discerning, wisdom is found....".
Prophesy is very hard to understand without intense submission and study. I believe lack of discernment of scripture and lack of HIS wisdom can lead to preterism.
quote:
75
oops! I forgot to add the most important lack of understanding of prophesy.
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RE: Matt 24 study (cont'd) - 10/17/2008 5:18:18 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 392
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shabbat shalom, everyone!
I would like to provide you a harmony of Matthew 24 & 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21. This harmony was done in Greek and THEN translated into English rather than trying to harmonize the English translations of these chapters.
And [the] Yeshua departed out from the Temple, and as He was departing out from the Temple one of his talmidim (students) said to Him, “Teacher, look at what kind of stones and what kind of buildings [are here]!” And His talmidim came to Him to give Him a tour of the buildings of the Temple. And, while some were speaking about the Temple, that it was adorned with valuable stones and consecrated gifts, [the] Yeshua answering asked him, “Do you see these things, these huge buildings?” and responding to them all, He said, “Do you see all these things? I guarantee to you: These things which you all are appreciating, days will come in which surely not shall be left here one stone upon another stone that shall not surely be torn down!”
But, He sat down upon the Har haZeitiym (the Mountain of the Olives), and as He was sitting upon the Har haZeitiym opposite the Temple, the talmidim Kefa (Peter), Ya`acov (Jacob or James), Yochanan (John) and Andreas (Andrew) approached Him privately apart saying, “Teacher, tell us, when then shall these things be? What will the sign of your becoming visible be, when all these things should be about to become, and of the entire completion of the age?”
But Yeshua answering, began to say, saying to them, “Be really careful not to let anyone mislead you, for many shall come above my authority, saying that, ‘I am the Mashiach (the Messiah),’ and ‘The time has arrived!’ and they will mislead many. Therefore, don’t go with them! But, you shall listen attentively and hear about wars and war reports and commotion; really, don’t be frightened; don’t be terrified, for it’s necessary that all these must happen first, but the end is not yet immediate.”
Then He said to them, “For nation shall awaken upon nation and kingdom upon kingdom, and there shall be famines, and epidemics, and there shall be huge earthquakes and troubles in various locations, and also great signs—fearful sights—from the skies. But, all these things are just the beginning of pain as in labor contractions.
“But, you, look out for yourselves! However, before all these things, they will lay their hands upon you, will persecute you, and hand you over. Then you shall be relinquished into stress, for you shall be surrendered unto the Sanhedrins and prisons, bringing you into synagogues. You will be beaten and brought before governors and kings, and they shall kill you because of my authority. But it shall turn out to you for a witness to them. And, the message about good things to come must first be proclaimed into all the nations, but also when they may lead you away, turning you over, do not be worried ahead of time about what you should say, nor should you rehearse your reply but whatever may be given to you in that moment, speak that for it won’t be you who speaks but the Awesome Breath [of God] (the Holy Spirit) speaking!
“Therefore, just decide in the core of your thoughts not to agonize about a defense, for I will give you an eloquence to which all those opposing you shall not be able to reply and a wisdom which they shall not be able to resist. Also, brother will turn in brother unto death, and a father his child, and children will rise up against their parents and turn them in unto death. Even you will be turned in by parents and siblings and relatives and friends, and they will condemn some from among you for death; you shall be ostracized by every nation because of my authority; however, not a hair from your head may ever perish. By your patient endurance, you shall gain your lives.
“Even then many shall be forced to do evil and shall reveal one another and will hate one another! And, many false prophets will arise and mislead many, and because the Lawlessness will become multiplied, the love of many will grow cold.
“But, the one who stays under unto the conclusion, he shall be rescued, and the good news about the Kingdom shall be heralded in all the earth’s household becoming a witness to all the nations, and then shall the conclusion come.
“But when you see Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) being surrounded by armies, then know that her Desolation has drawn near. Therefore, when you shall see the Abomination of the Desolation—the one which was spoken about by Dani’el (Daniel) the prophet—standing in the awesome Place, where it must not be, … (The one who’s reading this, let him understand.) … then let those in Y’hudah flee into the mountains. But, the one upon the roof-top should not come down into the house nor go inside to take anything out of his house. Furthermore, the one in the field is not to return back to take an item of his clothing, and those in the middle of it, let them run out and don’t let those in the wilderness enter into her. For these are the Days of Vengeance which are written about that all things may be fulfilled.
“But … Ooooooaaaaaaiiiiiii!!!!! … to those who are pregnant and to those who nurse babies in those days! And, ask God that your escape may not have to be in winter nor on the Shabbat (Sabbath), for then there shall be those days of great pressure, no, nor has been the like since Genesis’ Creation of the World which God created until now, and, no, nor ever shall be!
“Furthermore, if those days had not been shortened, and if the Lord had not shortened the days, there would not have been anybody left to rescue! However, for the sake of those Chosen Ones whom He chose, He has shortened the days. But, for the sake of the Chosen Ones, those days shall be shortened, for great distress will be upon the Land and violent passion in this people, and they shall fall by the mouth of the sword and shall be led away captive into all the nations, and Yerushalayim shall be trampled by the Goyim (nations; Gentiles) until the times of the Goyim be fulfilled.
“So, then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here’s the Mashiach (the Messiah)!’ or ‘Here!’ or ‘Look! There!’ don’t you believe it! For there will arise false Messiahs and false prophets and they will give you great signs and miracles for the deception so as to mislead even the Chosen Ones, if possible!
“However, you, watch out! Look, I have forewarned all this to you. Therefore, if they say to you, ‘Look! He’s in the wilderness!’ Don’t go out there! ‘Look! [He’s] in the assembly halls!’ Don’t believe it! For as the lightning strikes in the east and shines as far as the west, so [obvious] shall also be the becoming visible of the Son of Man! For wherever the carcass may be, that’s where the vultures will be flock!
“However, in those days immediately after that pressure of those days, there will be signs in the sun, moon, and stars: The sun shall be darkened, the moon shall not shine its light, and meteors shall fall out of the sky such that the meteorites shall be fallen out of the sky, and distress of nations and confusion shall be upon the earth; the roaring of the sea and waves! Human beings shall faint from fear from and the dread of those things which are expected to impend the habitable earth. And, for the powers which are in the sky (the cycles of the weather) shall be shaken (disrupted)!
“Also, then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the sky, and then shall mourn all the tribes of the Land, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the sky, coming in clouds, and coming in a cloud with great strength and great brightness. Then, also, He shall send his messengers with a loud trumpeting sound, and they shall gather His Chosen Ones together out of the four winds from the extremity of the earth to the extremity of the sky to the other limit of the sky. But, when these things begin to come to pass, look up and raise your heads high, for your redemption draws near!”
And, He spoke a parable to them:
“But, learn this analogy from the fig tree: Look at the fig tree, even all the trees. When its branch is already green, buds, and shoots forth leaves, you see for yourselves and you know that the summer is now near. Thus, in the same way, when you see all these things come to pass, know that the Kingdom of God is near, upon the threshold!
“I’m really telling you that this generation will not ever have passed until severally all these things be fulfilled, until the whole group of these things be fulfilled! The sky and the earth shall pass away but my words shall not ever pass away.
“But with respect to that day and that hour, no one knows [when], not even the messengers from the sky, those in the sky, neither the Son, but only my Father [knows].
“But like the days of Noach (Noah), in the same way will also be the making visible of the Son of Man: For like in those days before the Flood they were munching and guzzling, marrying and arranging marriages until that day Noach entered into the Ark and were not aware until the Flood came and swept absolutely all of them away! It shall also be the same way at the making visible of the Son of Man. Then, two [people] shall be in the field; one [man] shall be received near and the other [man] shall be sent away. Two [people] shall be grinding [grain into flour] at the mill; one [woman] shall be received near and the other [woman] shall be sent away.
“Therefore, guard then! You don’t know what time your master will come. But, know this: If the householder had known in which watch the burglar would arrive, he would have watched better and would not have allowed his house to be vandalized better. And, through that thing, you be ready, for at the time you are least prepared, the Son of Man shall come!
“Watch! Stay awake, and pray! For you don’t see when the time is. As a man traveling abroad who left his household in charge of his servants, putting each one his task and commanded the front door security guard to guard it. Therefore, be on guard! For you don’t know when the master of the household will return—at evening [the beginning of the Jewish day], or midnight, or cockcrowing or during the daytime. Otherwise, he will come unexpectedly to find you sleeping. But that which I say to you, I say to all: Be on guard!
“Then, who is the loyal and wise servant whom his master has made supervisor over his household to give the others their food rations on schedule? Happy will be that servant whom his master shall find so doing [his job] when he comes. I guarantee to you that he shall promote him over all his property.
“But if the evil servant shall say in the core of his thoughts [to himself], ‘My master is postponing his arrival,’ and shall begin to beat his fellow servants, but [shall begin] to eat and to drink with the drunken, the master of that servant shall come in a day when he least expects and at a time when he’s uninformed! And, he [the master] will cut his portion in two and he will list him with the fakers [play actors or liars who can’t be trusted]; there shall be weeping and grinding of the teeth!
“But, be cautious to yourselves so at no time the core of your thoughts becomes burdened with hangovers and drunkenness and cares of this life and so that Day comes upon you unprepared. For it shall come on all those who live on the surface of the whole earth like a trap [sprung]! Therefore, stay awake at all times pray that you may be considered deserving to escape all these things that shall come to pass and to stand before the Son of Man [unashamed].
“Then the kingdom from the skies will be similar to ten virgins (bridesmaids) who, having taken their lamps, set out to meet the groom. However, five of them were foolish and the other five wise. But they who were foolish, having taken their lamps, did not take with them [extra] oil. However, the wise [ones] took [extra] oil in their containers.
“While the groom took some time, they all became drowsy and they fell asleep. However, in the middle of the night, someone cried out, ‘Look! The groom is coming! Go out to meet him!’ Then, all the virgins (bridesmaids) got up and trimmed [the wicks of] their lamps, but the foolish [ones] said to the wise [ones], ‘Share some of your oil with us, for our lamps are going out!’ However, the wise [ones] answering said, ‘No, or there won’t be enough for us and you; rather, you go to those who sell [oil] and buy [some oil] for yourselves.’
“But, while they went away to buy [oil], the groom came and those who were ready went inside with him to the marriage celebration and the door was shut.
“Afterward, however, the other virgins also came saying, ‘Master! Master, open [the door] for us!’ but he answered saying, ‘I really mean it when I say I don’t know who you are!’
“Therefore, be on guard, for you neither know the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man comes! For, like a man traveling abroad called his own servants and turned over his property to them: To one he gave five talents [about $1000 each, $5000], but to another [he gave] two [$2000], and to another [he gave] only one [$1000]; to each person [he gave] according to their separate abilities. Then, he immediately left the country.
“The one who had the five talents, traded with them and earned another five talents. Likewise, he who received the two [talents] also earned another two talents. But, the one who had received only one [talent], went away, dug in the ground, and hid his master’s money.
“But, after a long time, the master of those servants returned and met with them for a report. So, having come in, the one who had received the five talents brought forward the other five talents, saying, ‘Master, you turned five talents over to me. Look! I have earned another five talents besides them.’ So, his master said to him, ‘Good [job], [my] good and loyal slave! You’ve been loyally consistent over a few things; I’m promoting you in charge over many things; go on into your master’s celebration.’
“But also, he who had received the two talents, having come before him, said, ‘Master, you gave me two talents. Look! I’ve earned besides them another two talents!’ His master said to him, ‘Good [job], good and loyal servant! You’ve been consistently loyal over a few things; I will promote you in charge of many things! Go on into you master’s celebration!’
“But, also having come forward, he who had received the one talent said, ‘Master, I knew that you are a tough man, harvesting the areas where you hadn’t sown seed and collecting straw from areas where you hadn’t winnowed, and I, being afraid, went away and hid your talent in the ground. Look! You still have your one [talent]!’
“However, his master answering him, said to him, ‘Shiftless and lazy servant! You KNEW that I “harvest where I hadn’t sowed [grain] and gathered from where I hadn’t winnowed!” Therefore, you should have [at least] put my money to the moneylenders so at coming I would have at least received my [money] with interest! Therefore,…
“ ‘Take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents; for to everyone who has shall be given, but him who has not, even that which he has shall be taken away from him, and throw out the useless servant into the darkness outside.’ There shall be weeping and grating of the teeth.
“But, when the Son of Man comes in his brightness and all the awesome messengers with him, then He shall sit upon his throne of brightness, and all the nations shall be gathered before Him, and He shall separate them from one another as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And, he shall set the real sheep out from his right side but the goats out from his left. Then shall the King say to those out from his right side,
“ ‘Come, happy ones from my Father! Inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the habitable world. For I was hungry, and you gave me [something] to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me [something] to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in; [I was] naked, and you put clothes on me; I was sick, and you visited me; I was in prison, and you came to me.’
“Then the righteous ones shall answer him, asking, ‘Master, when did we see you hungry and feed you or thirsty and gave you [something] to drink? But, when did we see you as a stranger and took you in or naked and put clothes on you? And, when did we see you sick or in prison and came to you?’
“And the King answering them will say to them, ‘I guarantee to you that as you have done [these things] to one of the least of my siblings, you have done it to me.’
“Then, he will also say to those out from his left side, ‘Go away from me, you cursed, into the fire of the ages prepared for the Slanderer (the Devil) and his messengers. For, I was hungry and you also did not give me [anything] to eat; I was thirsty, and you did not give me [anything] to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not take me in; [I was] naked, and you did not put clothes on me; [I was] sick and in prison, and you did not visit me.’
“Then, they shall also answer, asking, ‘Master, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and didn’t provide for you?’
“Then, he shall answer them by saying, ‘I guarantee to you, as much as you did not provide for one of the least of these [my siblings], you didn’t provide for me.’
“And, these [last ones] shall go away into the punishment of the ages, but the righteous ones into [the] life of the ages.”
Enjoy!
Retrobyter
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RE: Matt 24 study (cont'd) - 10/17/2008 6:52:46 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 392
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shabbat shalom, Christopher!
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ
When I first got saved about 18 years ago, I attended a church that was PDF in its eschatology (premillennial, dispensational and futurist). That was all I knew. However, as I studied the Scriptures on my own, studied church history, and read up on all of the different interpretations of the millennium and Revelation, I came to the conclusion that whatever I would believe, it would not be futuristic or dispensational, as those two seemed the most unbliblically sound of the bunch. I like both the preterist and continuous historicist positions on Revelation, and like both the postmill and amill positions. I am currently reading and studying through - verse by verse - the Book of Revelation, and just finished reading and studying Daniel 9:24-27, and Matthew 24. Here is a quote from my latest posted blog:
We have established that Daniel’s 70th week began at the inauguration of Jesus’ ministry in 27 AD, when He was anointed “Messiah the Prince” by John the Baptist. In the midst of this prophetic week, three and a half years later, the “Messiah was cut off” – that is, Jesus was crucified, in 30 AD... in my humble opinion, there is no solid Scriptural evidence to believe in a future ‘seven year tribulation’.
I would love to hear some feedback from the rest of you - especially those who may be PDF in your theology (premillennial, dispensational or futurist). Looking forward to discussing these things with you.
(You can check out my posts on Daniel 9:24-27 at: http://chris-jordan.blogspot.com/).
Your story is very similar to mine. I decided, however, to retain my premillennial and my futurist position. (I never could quite stomach dispensationalism.) HOWEVER, I, like you did come to recognize that the final seven of Dan. 9:24-27 began with the ministry of Yeshua`. I do NOT believe that it started with Yochanan the Submerger although Yeshua` was anointed by the Ruach haKodesh (the Holy Spirit) at that time. It was shortly thereafter when Yeshua` announced His Coming in Yerushalayim when He cleansed the Temple. The first 3-1/2 years was the time of His ministry during His first Advent. However, the seven was not completed at that time.
Instead, Yeshua` Himself broke the seven in two by splitting the Temple's veil:
Matt 27:50-53
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV
Mark 15:37-38
37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
KJV
Luke 23:44-46
44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.
46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
KJV
Heb 10:16-22
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
KJV
And, as I've said before, it was YESHUA` HIMSELF who not only "caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" (because of the above; if God doesn't accept the sacrifices and the gifts, then without His acceptance the sacrificers are just going through the motions). Also, HE was the one who broke the "covenant" or His offer to be their King as God's Christ (Greek, Christos) God's Messiah (Hebrew, Mashiach), God's Selection for Prophet, Priest, King, and Judge.
Furthermore, YESHUA` HIMSELF was the one who made the desolate desolate because of their overspreading abominations of rejecting Him as their King!
Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV
Matt 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV
Therefore, I do NOT believe that the whole seven is in the future; rather, I believe that half of the seven is in the past and half is still in the future.
Retrobyter
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 11/14/2008 1:49:13 PM
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SonicStudent
Posts: 376
Joined: 10/20/2008
Status: online
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Sorry about that..... cont from here ;-
Bob, how are you???
Well, I don’t know if this is a conclusion, but a definite consideration.
I do tend to believe that Jesus was born around 3 to 4 BC, which makes me think!
I used to believe in a gap dispensation theory between the 69th week and it recommencing the 70th week after the time of the Gentiles, still future to us. However, I had un-answered problems within this theory. Daniel’s description seemed to me to be describing what would happen regarding the Messiah, but because the accepted belief was that so much of the prophecy was teaching about anti-Christ, I’ve just accepted things.
In my ever changing opinion on this subject, it appears clear that there ‘is’ a future man of sin that the New Testament warns about, but I have to consider that Retro might well be correct, as I honestly find it difficult seeing him found in those verses in Daniel 9 and a lot of what is ascribed to anti-Christ in these verses should be ascribed to the Messiah.
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I was sat here last night reading these verses in Daniel, and began considering how God is so precise with numbers. We all recognise how God uses numbers to indicate various occurrences or truths. Examples being;
No. 4 = Earth, creation, world, No. 7 = Perfection, completeness, No. 40 = Probation, testing, closing in victory or judgment …… And so on!!!
Anyways it got me thinking. I find it very unlikely that Jesus’ ministry on Earth was purposed to be three and a half years long, when we consider that we are dealing with a prophecy that is primarily dealing with multiples of sevens and seven indicating completeness and perfection. It would be reasonable to assume that the Messiah’s ministry was indeed intended to be seven years long, which goes along way to explaining why the content here uses the term ‘cut off’. Not just cut off from the land of the living, but also cut short!
When I looked at Luke 4: 17-19 17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the broken hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. It seems to indicate that this was it! This was the time for Israel to be delivered and to finally understand what their God was all about and receive their King that would not only heal them, but through them, bring healing and understanding to a world that didn’t know God. It was time to receive their king and with Him, take the Kingdom of God to the rest of the world, having all God’s promises fulfilled.
Because of their rejection, jealousy and blindness, instead they had their Messiah killed, half way through that ministry. I think that Jesus’ triumphant entry into Jerusalem ‘should’ have been Jesus’ time to be accepted and begin to lead God’s people. If things had gone completely different than they did, heaven only knows what would have been achieved during the ‘next’ three and a half years of that ministry, but I think it would be fare to say, it would have been Perfection and completeness. Here’s where the prophecies indicate Israel ‘should’ have received their Messiah;
John 12:12On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, 13Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord. 14And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, 15Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass’s colt.
And here is the result of their rejection at the halfway point of Jesus’ ministry to become their Messiah;
Matt 23: 37-39O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Isn’t it a possibility worth pondering that ‘here’ is where Daniel’s prophecy freeze frames? Israel receiving their Messiah and King halted because of their unbelief?
Of course the Lord God knew this would happen and ordained that this very act of rejection by the world of men would actually bring the salvation of God to those that ‘would’ believe on His name.
Since then, Israel in general have rejected belief that Jesus was their King and Messiah, and so continue to wait for the fulfilment of the prophecy of their Messiah coming to deliver them.
But there is danger here regarding the Jewish peoples belief that their Messiah has not yet been. Jesus warned them with a prophetic warning concerning their rejection of Him;
John 5: 43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
It seems to me that Jesus is saying here that; even though He came doing God’s will for the glory of God and in God’s name, for the salvation of God’s people, they still rejected Him, because they ‘didn’t want this man to rule over them’!
But that another ‘will’ come, and he will come not to do the will of God, but for his own purposes and in His own name, and because his message will tickle their ears, they ‘will’ receive him!
It sure sounds like the Jews are going to accept this man as their Messiah!
When this day comes, and the Jewish people hail this fake as their messiah, I think it may well be then that Daniel’s prophesy recommences. Jesus returning to claim His throne and the judgement of God!
There is a shadow and type in 1 Kings 1 When King David was old, and Solomon was to gain the thrown as sworn by David his father, but Adonijah glorified himself and proclaimed himself king, usurping David’s son Prince Solomon from his God given right to be king of Israel.
1 kings 1: 5 5Then Adonijah the son of Haggith exalted himself, saying, I will be king: and he prepared him chariots and horsemen, and fifty men to run before him.
24And Nathan said, (to King David) My lord, O king, hast thou said, Adonijah shall reign after me, and he shall sit upon my throne? 25For he is gone down this day, and hath slain oxen and fat cattle and sheep in abundance, and hath called all the king’s sons, and the captains of the host, and Abiathar the priest; and, behold, they eat and drink before him, and say, God save king Adonijah.
Then King David said - 30Even as I sware unto thee by the LORD God of Israel, saying, Assuredly Solomon thy son shall reign after me, and he shall sit upon my throne in my stead; even so will I certainly do this day. And king David said, Call me Zadok the priest, and Nathan the prophet, and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada. And they came before the king. 33The king also said unto them, Take with you the servants of your lord, and cause Solomon my son to ride upon mine own mule, and bring him down to Gihon: 34And let Zadok the priest and Nathan the prophet anoint him there king over Israel: and blow ye with the trumpet, and say, God save king Solomon.
Adonijah finds out the bad news:
Adonijah said unto him, Come in; for thou art a valiant man, and bringest good tidings. 43And Jonathan answered and said to Adonijah, Verily our lord king David hath made Solomon king. 44And the king hath sent with him Zadok the priest, and Nathan the prophet, and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, and the Cherethites, and the Pelethites, and they have caused him to ride upon the king’s mule | | |
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