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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/7/2008 6:36:42 PM
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keepingfaith
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quote:
Not a headache, but increasingly realizing that some people believe what they believe regardless of any evidence to the contrary.
I've seen no evidence so far... that what Jesus and Paul said isn't true.
What no one will ever convince me of is that this 50% (feels higher) divorce rate even in the church, is what Jesus intended. Just study the last 40 years of research on the affects of divorce on children... and you can get from that alone that this kind of destruction of the family is not coming from any part of God's plan or His laws.
What's even sadder...is that second and subsequent marriages have an even lower success rate. So that's obviously not God's answer, and the odds of them making their first marriage work appear to be better than "moving on."
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"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/7/2008 7:32:08 PM
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Qtman
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Keepingfaith no one has tried to say the high divorce rate is what Jesus intended or wanted. All any of us are saying is although sometimes wrong and sometimes caused by sinful acts divorce happens. However it is not the unforgivable sin. It does not help to compound the matter by doing as some advocate and divorcing a second spouse. To sins don't make a right.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/7/2008 8:58:41 PM
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keepingfaith
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quote:
Keepingfaith no one has tried to say the high divorce rate is what Jesus intended or wanted. All any of us are saying is although sometimes wrong and sometimes caused by sinful acts divorce happens. However it is not the unforgivable sin. It does not help to compound the matter by doing as some advocate and divorcing a second spouse. To sins don't make a right.
If the teaching in the church was that marriage was permanent and the only option was to remain single or be reconciled (like Paul says), do you honestly believe the divorce rate would be this high in the church? Jesus knew how much sin there would be... in fact Paul warned us that we would face many troubles in marriage. If He knew how much sin there would be, and He knew how many would commit adultery and "abandon" their spouse... I don't believe Jesus would teach something that would result in this chaos.
No one has ever said divorce is unpardonable, or that 2 sins make a right. It is not sin to leave a second "marriage"- it is actually forsaking of the sin of adultery they are committing with someone else's spouse, or against their true spouse. This also opens up the possibility of reconciliation with the one they vowed til death, and God joined them to for life. 1cor7:39, Rom 7:23, Luke 16:18
So I don't see that as compounding the problem- I see it as fixing it.
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/7/2008 9:18:49 PM
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SealedEternal
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
Matthew 19:9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for fornication, and marries another woman commits adultery. And the one who marries her who was put away commits adultery."
agreed! glad you brought it up, usually it's ignored! btw why do you underline and bold so much in your posts, they make it difficult to read.
You still haven't answered the question. How does it fit into what you're claiming here that Jesus says the woman who was innocent of unchastity (or as one translation errantly says marital unfaithfulness) is made to commit adultery by her husband divorcing her? And also why does it say that whoever marries the woman who was unjustly divorced by her husband is also guilty of adultery by marrying her?
Matthew 5:31-32 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
SealedEternal
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/7/2008 9:30:05 PM
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SealedEternal
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tn1
As I've pointed out before, the phrase "one flesh" was an idiomatic, culturally specific phrase that meant family. In the Bible, in Hebraic and Aramaic cultures, the term “flesh” was used to refer to one’s clan or family group. For example, a law concerning slavery in Leviticus 25:49 says, “or their uncle or their uncle’s son may redeem them, or anyone of their family who is of their own flesh may redeem them” (NRSV). The word "flesh" is the Hebrew word "basar" and is the same word as used in Gen. 2:24 that says the man and woman shall become one "flesh".
Becoming "one flesh" is to become "family"; it does not mean that the two people become in any way like one person or enter some kind of unbreakable union.
That is not at all what the text says:
Genesis 2:21-24 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
Matthew 19:4-6 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
Mark 10: 6-12 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Ephesians 5:28-33 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.
The text says that God joins TWO, one man and one woman into one flesh, and Jesus added that what He joins we may not separate. He further clarifies that statement by adding that everyone who attempts to separate this union and join to another is actually entering an extramarital affair:
Mark 10:11-12 And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
If remarriage after divorce is adultery, then by definition the divorce did not succeed in separating what God had joined. If it had adultery could not be an issue.
SealedEternal
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/7/2008 9:50:46 PM
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SealedEternal
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tn1
Furthermore, Gen. 2:24 is not a "law" as you claim, but it is either Historical Narrative or Metaphorical Narrative. "Law" is interpreted differently than "Historical Narrative." A common mistake many people make is to take phrases from narrative and interpret it like law, to take it out of context and make it say much more than was ever intended.
I disagree with you there too, because anything God institutes is a Law. In this case He introduced the concept of marriage and stated that it is His plan for a man to leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and the two to become one flesh:
Genesis 2:21-24 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
Jesus quoting this passage added that they are no longer two, but one flesh, and stated that what therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.
Matthew 19:6 "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
SealedEternal
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/7/2008 10:09:23 PM
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SealedEternal
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tn1
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
It is you that assumes that divorce is allowable for other causes, but you have failed to present any scriptural support for your assertation.
Deut. 22:13-19 says that if a man marries a woman who was suppose to be a virgin but who was not, the woman is killed. But if the man is proven to have falsely accused her, it forbids him to ever divorce her.
In like manner, if we had a law that said that people 16 years old cannot drive at night from 12 AM to 6 AM, then it assumes that those who are 16 can drive the remainder of the day.
So, the Law forbid a man divorcing his wife if he falsely accused her of not being a virgin; it does not restrict divorce otherwise.
That still isn't scriptural support for your position, but another bad analogy. Deuteronomy 22 has an either/or proposition. Either the woman is a virgin and he couldn't divorce her all his days or she isn't and he may divorce her by putting her to death. Because only death ends the marriage covenant, death was the only way to divorce innitially. Then in Deut 24:1-4 an additional provision was added allowing a bill of divorce which didn't require the womans death, but stated that if the man used the provision he could not take her back if she remarried.
Besides that, this is an Old Covenant provision for the Israelites and has no application to New Covenant people any more than the many stoning provisions and other regulations given to the Old Covenant Israelites which no one here is practicing. If one is going to appeal to the Old Covenant Law to condemn their spouse, they cannot expect New Covenant grace for themselves.
SealedEternal
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/7/2008 10:27:01 PM
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SealedEternal
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
That's the key, because the New Covenant states that children of God are given new hearts through the regeneration of His Spirit, so by definition we are not hard hearted. That is just bad exegesis.
If that were so, the writer of Hebrews would not echo David's warning from Ps 95:
Heb 3:6 but Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.
Heb 3:7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, "Today, if you hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness,
Heb 3:9 where your fathers put me to the test and saw my works
Heb 3:10 for forty years. Therefore I was provoked with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart; they have not known my ways.'
Heb 3:11 As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall not enter my rest.'"
Heb 3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.
He repeats this warning in 3.15 and again in 4.7
Paul also warns the believers in Rome with these words:
Rom 2:4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
Just because someone is born again does not mean they escape all judgement:
1Co 3:11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw--
1Co 3:13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
1Co 3:14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
I would count hard heartedness as something that will burn and cause loss.
None of those verses are referring to children of God which was what I said:
John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Titus 3:5: “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit.”
Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Hebrews 10:15-17 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," He then says, "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Romans 8:5-17 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
2 Corinthians 3:2-18 You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory. Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
The verses that say not to harden your heart are speaking to those who have not yet undergone the rebirthing process, so they are not children of God yet, and never will be if they insist on hardening their hearts.
The last passage also refutes the idea than New Covenant people are supposed to keep the Old Covenant Law as tn1 is trying to claim.
SealedEternal
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 7:27:37 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
The verses that say not to harden your heart are speaking to those who have not yet undergone the rebirthing process, so they are not children of God yet, and never will be if they insist on hardening their hearts. And why would the unsaved be reading a letter from an apostle to a church?
They would not. This was all written to born again believers. The ONLY parts of the NT addressed to unbelievers would be much of Jesus' sermons and Paul's evangelical outreaches as recorded in Acts. From Romans on to Revelation everything is written to believers.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 9:10:18 AM
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laura...
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quote:
If the teaching in the church was that marriage was permanent and the only option was to remain single or be reconciled (like Paul says), do you honestly believe the divorce rate would be this high in the church?
No. But the murder rate would go up. The abandonment rate would go up. And, people would still divorce because most would prefer being single the rest of their lives than live with abuse. Get the abuse rate down in the church and the divorce rate will go down.
quote:
If He knew how much sin there would be, and He knew how many would commit adultery and "abandon" their spouse... I don't believe Jesus would teach something that would result in this chaos.
It is not the teaching that divorce ends a marriage and that second marriages are not adultery that is causing this chaos. Hard hearts, sinful hearts and domestic violence are causing this chaos. Get rid of those things and divorce would become obsolete.
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This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 9:21:56 AM
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tn1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
Not a headache, but increasingly realizing that some people believe what they believe regardless of any evidence to the contrary.
I've seen no evidence so far... that what Jesus and Paul said isn't true.
You must not have been reading my posts, for I never said that what Jesus and Paul said isn't true. Please don't misrepresent what I've presented. Rather, what I've shown is that people misunderstand and misinterpret what Jesus said and Paul wrote because of not understanding the context of those passages, either the literary, cultural, historical, social, or authorial aspects.
quote:
What no one will ever convince me of is that this 50% (feels higher) divorce rate even in the church, is what Jesus intended. Just study the last 40 years of research on the affects of divorce on children... and you can get from that alone that this kind of destruction of the family is not coming from any part of God's plan or His laws.
No one, including me, is trying to "convince" you of such. Rather, I'm noting that the traditional doctrine has been functionally ineffective in making any positive difference in the divorce rate. And I've repeatedly stated that the divine ideal, what God intends for marriage is a lifelong monogomous familial union of a man and woman in a healthy happy marriage. Hardness of heart leads to abuse, adultery, divorce, and even murder. Sadly, the traditional doctrine focuses on controlling people by irrationally and unscripturally insisting that marriage is indissoluble rather than empowering people to have healthy marriages through recognizing that marriages are breakable. Even relationships "joined together by God" run the risk of being torn apart because of the hard-heartedness of humanity (whether they are believers or not).
Marriages ending in divorce is tragic, but what's more tragic is the church walking in deceptions and illusions.
quote:
What's even sadder...is that second and subsequent marriages have an even lower success rate. So that's obviously not God's answer, and the odds of them making their first marriage work appear to be better than "moving on."
The thing about statistics is that people can interpret statistics to mean anything they want them to mean. For example, if the goal is people having healthy marriages. 50% of first marriages end in divorce, and 65% of 2nd marriages end in divorce, and 85% of 3rd marriages end in divorce. When you add all of the people together who eventually have a happy healthy marriage, it ends up being 70.1% [50% + (35% of 50% = 17.5%) + (15% of 17.5% = 2.6%)]. Of course, I'm just pointing out the falacy of using percentages to prove anything.
What's "obvious" to me is that we need to empower people to be tenderhearted towards one another through the mercies and forgiveness of God. The traditional doctrine does neither, because it focuses more on the institution of marriage than on the people. The traditional focuses on keeping people from divorcing rather than on empowering them to have healthy mutually respectful and loving marriages whether it's their first or tenth!
< Message edited by tn1 -- 10/8/2008 12:49:00 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 9:33:46 AM
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tn1
Posts: 167
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
Keepingfaith no one has tried to say the high divorce rate is what Jesus intended or wanted. All any of us are saying is although sometimes wrong and sometimes caused by sinful acts divorce happens. However it is not the unforgivable sin. It does not help to compound the matter by doing as some advocate and divorcing a second spouse. To sins don't make a right.
If the teaching in the church was that marriage was permanent and the only option was to remain single or be reconciled (like Paul says), do you honestly believe the divorce rate would be this high in the church? Jesus knew how much sin there would be... in fact Paul warned us that we would face many troubles in marriage. If He knew how much sin there would be, and He knew how many would commit adultery and "abandon" their spouse... I don't believe Jesus would teach something that would result in this chaos.
In the dark ages, the RCC did legislate that marriage was indissoluble, and this continues to be the doctrine of that church today. But of course, because marriages continued to functionally end and because such separated couples continued to need companionship, in order to allow another "out", they came up with the doctrine of "anulment". Doctrinally enforcing the illusion that marriage is indissoluble only compounds the problem for the church does not have the authority to enforce such a resolution. MDR is under civil authority, not ecclesial authority.
quote:
No one has ever said divorce is unpardonable, or that 2 sins make a right. It is not sin to leave a second "marriage"- it is actually forsaking of the sin of adultery they are committing with someone else's spouse, or against their true spouse. This also opens up the possibility of reconciliation with the one they vowed til death, and God joined them to for life. 1cor7:39, Rom 7:23, Luke 16:18
So I don't see that as compounding the problem- I see it as fixing it.
Actually, Deut. 24:1-4 says that if a man divorces his wife and she marries another man, it's an abomination for the man to ever remarry his ex-wife whether she was again divorced or widowed by her second husband - an "abomination", a hateful sin. You're welcome to disregard the Law if you wish, but Jesus said those who obeyed and taught the Law would be greatest in the Kingdom; and those who neither obeyed or taught the Law would be least in the Kingdom. And He also said that not the least letter of the Law would pass until heaven and earth disappear.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 9:38:53 AM
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tn1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
quote:
If the teaching in the church was that marriage was permanent and the only option was to remain single or be reconciled (like Paul says), do you honestly believe the divorce rate would be this high in the church?
No. But the murder rate would go up. The abandonment rate would go up. And, people would still divorce because most would prefer being single the rest of their lives than live with abuse. Get the abuse rate down in the church and the divorce rate will go down.
Too funny, but oh so true. The problem is the hardness of heart that leads to abuse, neglect, divorce, and even murder. Instead of cursing the fruit (divorce), the church needs to dig up the root (hard-heartedness)!
Instead of trying to force people to live up to the perfection of Eden using that as a Standard to condemn everyone who doesn't live up to it; let's see Eden as a goal that we work towards, praying for the kingdom of God to come on earth as it is in heaven.
< Message edited by tn1 -- 10/8/2008 12:34:37 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 12:23:19 PM
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DaveW
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Sealed: do you believe there is such a thing as a carnal believer?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 3:57:12 PM
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tn1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
quote:
So, what does "what God has joined together" mean?
Unfortunately I don't have scripture to back this up, just my opinion. If a couple marries outside of God's will, does the fact that it is a first union make it God joined and Holy? If God outright tells two people to not marry, to marry would be sinful.
The problem with this outlook is that too often it is used as an excuse for divorce when troubles come.
I suppose that's a possible meaning, but it makes it very subjective to people hearing personally from God. Though "what God has joined together" is not the focus of the passage, it is an important phrase and does seem to be set in contrast to the phrase "except for fornication".
Fornication speaks of immoral and/or illegal relationships. For example, for a Jew to marry a Gentile, such a relationship was not completely moral. In fact, it was against the Law of Moses. And thus the men of Israel were once commanded to divorce their pagan wives.
To me, "what God has joined together" speaks of relationships that are both moral and legal that are joined together in a marriage covenant.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 8:15:51 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2454
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
quote:
So, what does "what God has joined together" mean?
Unfortunately I don't have scripture to back this up, just my opinion. If a couple marries outside of God's will, does the fact that it is a first union make it God joined and Holy? If God outright tells two people to not marry, to marry would be sinful.
The problem with this outlook is that too often it is used as an excuse for divorce when troubles come.
quote:
Unfortunately I don't have scripture
Greetings,
Hello Sis!!!
quote:
Unfortunately I don't have scripture to back this up
I'll be happy to offer the scriptures up
and Sister RH got it right here aslo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Restored_Heart
We have tried, however, ensure that the actual words of Jesus and Paul are portrayed.
Including the exceptions and fulfillment of the OT law.
the exception; or the NT law.... is the fulfillment of the OT law, as it is spoken here by Paul
Ephesians 2:14-22
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained “in ordinances”, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
To be fair to the principal and “consistent with the law of God” in absolutes
…It seems that God had already set in place right to “separate” in what He had ordained since the beginning.
= raise that middle wall of separation> (or the great gulf)
At least that’s what Jesus called it… here in Luke 16:26
Ephesians 2:
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.= (by separation)
The keys to the principal of the exception are written in verse 15 and 16; and I also put in bold above the key points of that understanding; as it was reiterated by Paul above to when Jesus addressed the Pharisees over Moses precept in Matt 19... etc.
quote:
So, what does "what God has joined together" mean?
Of course you don’t have a scripture to back that because it is only half the truth 
LG
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Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 9:16:46 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1173
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
The verses that say not to harden your heart are speaking to those who have not yet undergone the rebirthing process, so they are not children of God yet, and never will be if they insist on hardening their hearts. And why would the unsaved be reading a letter from an apostle to a church?
Because that's how they would learn and grow in Christ to become saved. Everyone who met with the "Church" wasn't saved, but were at various points of growth in being sanctified by God's Spirit to become saved. Salvation is process that begins at conversion, but one is not "saved" until they have been regenerated and sanctified by God's Spirit, or in other words, born again.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 9:17:52 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 840
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
The problem is the hardness of heart that leads to abuse, neglect, divorce, and even murder. Instead of cursing the fruit (divorce), the church needs to dig up the root (hard-heartedness)!
I really don't know how many divorces are a result of abuse, but somehow that always gets thrown out as if it's the main reason for all these divorces. If there are that many cases of abuse WITHIN the church, then we are in trouble.
For all the other excuses... scripture instructs us what to do when we are with someone who is an unbeliever, or is disobedient to the word...
If we need to separate for the sake of peace and safety that's fine, but having the heart of Christ would be to pray for that person who obviously needs Jesus. "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do..." Jesus isn't going to tell them they are not worthy... why should we? Are you going to stand before God one day and say I know my spouse is good enough for you, but they weren't good enough for me?
You said:
Instead of cursing the fruit (divorce), the church needs to dig up the root (hard-heartedness)!
I agree, but what I see is the church encouraging hard heartedness. We are no better if we harden our hearts and close the door for reconciliation to a spouse who leaves and sins against us... We should never remain irreconcilable. We are supposed to be representing and reflecting Jesus...........I don't see Him in that anywhere.
It doesn't matter how high the divorce rate is... either way we would have A LOT more reconciliations- even post-divorce if the church didn't have the "move on" no accountability for our vows mentality. If we started holding people accountable and did not marry divorced people. Rarely will someone get counsel to pray for reconciliation even though that is God's clearly expressed will.
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 10/8/2008 9:40:21 PM >
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 9:27:56 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1173
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Sealed: do you believe there is such a thing as a carnal believer?
1 John 2:3-6 By this WE KNOW that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
1 John 5:2-3 By this WE KNOW that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:18 We know that NO ONE who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
1 John 3:7-10 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. BY THIS the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
Matthew 7:16-23 "YOU WILL KNOW them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "So then, you will know them by their fruits. "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Ephesians 5:5-8 For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them; for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, NOR ADULTERERS, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
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For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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