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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/9/2008 11:21:24 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 482
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: online
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Mannamuncher,
quote:
The Bible already tells us there is weeds with the wheat, and some will leave because they were never really among us, or never "saved".
There is a 'Jesus as Savior' salvation that determines wheat/weed salvation of our (spirit). But there is also a 'Jesus is Lord' salvation that determines how much 'chaff' has been dealt with concerning each kernel of wheat (soul).
The spirit is a osas salvation, and the soul is a progressive or 'working' salvation as we make Him Lord, from one degree to another, of our life/psuche/soul.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/9/2008 12:07:26 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3148
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
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quote:
The spirit is a osas salvation, and the soul is a progressive or 'working' salvation as we make Him Lord, from one degree to another, of our life/psuche/soul. Him4all, I ignored your first post on this separation of spirit and soul, but I'm not going to let it go by again! 1 Thess 5:23 specifically states that our whole spirit, soul, and body will be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. There is no Scriptural support for the artificial separation of spirit and soul into different kinds of salvation.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/9/2008 12:24:42 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2375
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
If you believe that it is inevitable then no Christian would die in sin, right? And there would be no such thing as a sin unto death for a Christian.
Its christlikeNESS, not christlike, GC.
quote:
Let me suggest that the "glorification" spoken of in
Rom 8:29 is not in this life, unless you think you are going
to have a sinless body in this life too.
I believe it is speaking of chrislikenes in this life
and glorification in the future.
I guess we'll just disagree.
quote:
And frankly, I have no interest in arguing Calvinism with you.
So, perseverance of the Saints cannot be a topic of this thread.
Who said that? BTW I am not a Calvinist.
quote:
Positional sanctification is true for every single believer.
This is justification not "positional sanctification"
Dividing sanctification up is confusing to many.
Is glorification "future sanctification"?
quote:
Practical sanctification is relative.
Disagree. Phil 1:6 clearly tells us it is not relative.
He began a good work (justified us) and continues it
(progressive sanct.)
quote:
Some have more of it than others do.
Sure. We can choose to be Spirit filled.
quote:
Many people get into the fruit inspecting business.
They start judging people's salvation based upon the fruit
they can observe and assuming that because it is not at the
expected level, they judge a person not being saved.
I tell my sons if their faith is not a reality it might not be real.
You think I am lying to them?
Why do you feel being saved doesn't always translate into
a reality for the believer?
You know how many deceived people are justified by this?
Sad.
quote:
The whole gospel of what? We are talking about initial salvation aren't we? Or, are we talking about growth and maturity? If we are justified of our sins before God, are we born again or not?
Christianity fails if we do not recognize the narrow road.
The baptist church has been abandoning people at the gate
for years and years and is now reaping the harvest of
unregenerate church members.
Initial salvation? I don't get that.
Do you tell people if they are saved certain things "might"
change or certainly, things will change?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/9/2008 1:19:22 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 482
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: online
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drmark,
quote:
1 Thess 5:23 specifically states that our whole spirit, soul, and body will be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. There is no Scriptural support for the artificial separation of spirit and soul into different kinds of salvation.
I obviously disagree.  Reread 1Thess a little closer. Paul is NOT saying anything "specifically" as you incorrectly say above. As a matter of fact he is "praying" that it might be so in KJV, and other translations omit pray and add "may". So that would imply a little less 'definite state' than you infer with your "specifically states" comment, IMO.
1Thess 5:23 is one of my favorite scriptures becasue it establishes the tricotomy of man as far as I'm concerned. And that tricotomy follows with so much symbolism concerning salvation...if you are open to seeing it. This view of mine is the only one that allows for all the truth of both Armenianism and Calvinism. Both of those 'opposed positions' have validity, but they are both only half right and half wrong. Calvinists cling to the scriptures/understanding which pertains only to the spirit salvation whereas Armenianists cling to the scriptures/understanding as pertaining to the soul.
Does scripture spell that out a progressive triune salvation in superficial simplicity???? NO! That's why the learned men of scholarship will never come to a knowledge of that truth without humbleness before the Spirit of revelation.
1TH 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly/holoteles; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Also, note the word "wholly/holoteles" in the above scripture. It means "complete to the end". And it's speaking of "sanctification" only, which relates to the soul IMO. It doesn't mention justification (spirit) or glorification (body) with that 'wholeness process'. Well, if there is a"'end" in this process of "completion", then it stands to reason that there is any number of degrees which are short of that desired "end" goal...of being "absolutely perfect/perfection". A goal which nobody I know, has achieved. Not even Paul, by his own admission (Phil 3:2).
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/9/2008 3:11:31 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1974
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
Source: New Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Testament Volume
23 sanctify you—make you holy. wholly—“through and through” (NIV). whole—entire, encompassing a man’s total being. spirit and soul and body—All three constitute man “entire.” The spirit enables man to contact the divine Spirit and is that part of man quickened by God’s Spirit at the time of regeneration (John 3:6; Rom. 8:16). The soul of man is man’s personality and inward, animating essence. Man’s body, of course, is man’s physical being. God works from the inside out to sanctify one’s entire being. blameless—The goal of God’s sanctifying work is to preserve each believer in holiness. the coming—the parousia, the Second Coming.
I kind of like this definition.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/9/2008 4:08:53 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1825
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
And frankly, I have no interest in arguing Calvinism with you.
So, perseverance of the Saints cannot be a topic of this thread.
Who said that? BTW I am not a Calvinist.
My mistake, then. You were sounding like one.
quote:
quote:
Positional sanctification is true for every single believer.
This is justification not "positional sanctification"
Dividing sanctification up is confusing to many. That wouldn't make it any less true.
quote:
Is glorification "future sanctification"?
I see it as future salvation, when we will be sinless.quote:
Disagree. Phil 1:6 clearly tells us it is not relative.
He began a good work (justified us) and continues it
(progressive sanct.)
It does not "clearly" tell us any such thing. In fact, I would suggest that you are out of context. It is talking about Paul's confidence that the Philippians would continue partnering with Paul in spreading the gospel until the day of Christ. It is NOT about their sanctification.
quote:
I tell my sons if their faith is not a reality it might not be real.
You think I am lying to them?
I have no idea. How would you quantify this "reality"? Feelings? Counting one's sins? I don't find any place in the Bible where we are told to question our salvation unless we are in disobedience. I have told my daughter that she was in disobedience when she sinned. Only God knows a person's heart.
quote:
The baptist church has been abandoning people at the gate
for years and years and is now reaping the harvest of
unregenerate church members.
Now it comes out. Judging other people's salvation. Baptists don't have a monopoly on that. When you point one finger at others, there are 3 fingers pointing back at you.
"Who are you to judge another man's servant?"
quote:
Initial salvation? I don't get that.
We can know that we have eternal life. (1 John 5:13) What's not to get?
quote:
Do you tell people if they are saved certain things "might"
change or certainly, things will change?
Sure. But our certainty is not based on our degree of change. Among other things, it is based on our faith and trust in Christ and His word that He promised to save us when we call upon Him. People often lack assurance when they are in sin. I try to make sure they have a clear understanding of the gospel. Sometimes they don't.
If their feedback is biblical, I address their need to repent of either the sin they are in or their need of further instruction. Pressuring into into trusting Christ again only increases their uncertainty.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 10/9/2008 5:43:22 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/9/2008 5:55:57 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 482
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
Source: New Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Testament Volume
23 sanctify you—make you holy. wholly—“through and through” (NIV). whole—entire, encompassing a man’s total being. spirit and soul and body—All three constitute man “entire.” The spirit enables man to contact the divine Spirit and is that part of man quickened by God’s Spirit at the time of regeneration (John 3:6; Rom. 8:16). The soul of man is man’s personality and inward, animating essence. Man’s body, of course, is man’s physical being. God works from the inside out to sanctify one’s entire being. blameless—The goal of God’s sanctifying work is to preserve each believer in holiness. the coming—the parousia, the Second Coming.
I kind of like this definition.
Bob
If there is a verse saying the spirit or the body is sanctified I don't know where it is. Personally, I think it is a stretch to say 1Thess 5:23 is saying such a thing
.
JOH 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.
JAM 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
1PE 1:22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth/word for a sincere love of the brethren, love one another earnestly from the heart.
In the above I see sanctification as a process and relating to the soul which is 'progressively saved' as we are progressively engrafted with 'the word of truth'.
YOU MAY LIKE YOUR DEFINITION, BUT I LIKE THE FOLLOWING DEFINITIONS OF JUSTIFICATION, SANCTIFICATION, GLORIFICATION. ALL OF WHICH COME FROM THE ZONDERVAN BIBLE DICTIONARY AND THE ITALLICS ARE MINE.
JUSTIFICATION: def. Judicial act of God, by which on the basis of the meritorious work of Christ, imputed to the sinner and received by him through faith, He declares the sinner absolved from his sin, released from its penalty and restored as righteous.
This definition is speaking about the born again experience of the human spirit. Spirit Righteousness is an ‘imputed’ or ‘declared’ righteousness. We are deemed to be ‘not guilty’ though we are ‘not innocent’. In court, just because the judge says, “Not guilty!”, it doesn’t mean someone is innocent
SANCTIFICATION: def. The progressive conformation of the believer into the image of Christ, or the process where the life is made morally holy.
The daily ‘walk in the spirit’ where our soul is renewed by the Holy Spirit as we put on the mind of Christ and are made holy and perfect.
GLORIFICATION: def. Transformation of our body into the likeness of our glorified Lord.
Immortality, or glorification of our body by the Father.
Going to Branson for 4 days so you all have fun now.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/10/2008 6:57:03 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2375
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Is glorification "future sanctification"?
I see it as future salvation, when we will be sinless.
So you see it as part of our salvation.
Then why not see sanctification as part of our salvation rather than
an option or "add on" IF the believer feels like it?
quote:
It does not "clearly" tell us any such thing. In fact, I would suggest that
you are out of context. It is talking about Paul's confidence that the Philippians
would continue partnering with Paul in spreading the gospel until the day of Christ.
It is NOT about their sanctification.
Then you are at odds with most interpretations of this verse.
Look up the parallels.
quote:
I have no idea. How would you quantify this "reality"? Feelings?Counting one's sins?/
Experiencing God in our lives is not always a "quantifying" experience, just
like trying to quantify the reality of my wifes' love. She makes me coffee? Maybe.
Love is an action and I could not say my wife truly loves me if she
says she does than then has an affair with another man.
I believe our faith is also useful. For example being able to cope, make wise decisions,
know who the best pres candidate is, etc. 
quote:
I don't find any place in the Bible where we are told to question our
salvation unless we are in disobedience. I have told my daughter that she
was in disobedience when she sinned. Only God knows a person's heart.
1Cor 15:2 gives a clear warning that we may have believed in vain.
Interesting that you seem to think our faith need not be real, there not
necessarily be fruit, and we not necessarily persevere - all marks of
a true believer - so the only apparent assurance you can have is what you think
you believe? You really want to trust your mind for your confidence, or
trust the new birth and the transformation?
quote:
Now it comes out. Judging other people's salvation.
Baptists don't have a monopoly on that. When you point one finger
at others, there are 3 fingers pointing back at you.
Whose judging anyone's salvation. Actually my opinion is most of
us will never truly know we are saved until we are glorified, such
is the weakness of our sinful minds and the motives.
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is
broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Your theology leads people to the narrow gate and abandons them with the
heresy that our Spiritual regeneration is a hidden work of God and
our transformation does not necessarily evidence itself in our lives and lifestyles.
As if the draw of God stops once we are justified by faith.
And yes, I AM pointing a finger - look at the general state of the church -
worldly and run out of the flesh by and large. Ted Turner once said if
he needed spiritual advice he would seek the Dahli Lama and if he
needed a CEO he would seek a baptist preacher.
Jesus taught a different gospel than the one you do - he taught there is
also a narrow road. You will not know if you entered through the narrow gate
until you have progressed down the narrow road. There is one entrance:
through him and there is one way to eternal life: to him.
He taught there will be a real cost because we will love Him more than any other.
Do we teach prospective converts their new life will be costly? God forbid!
We can make all the claims we want about how we got saved and
where and when, but these are meaningless words until we explain
our testimony of conversion and our testimony of our walk with God.
Anybody who places their confidence on what they supposedly "believe"
has no confidence at all. But the one who places his confidence in
the radical changes wrought by a supernatural work of God - no
he has real confidence! There IS an old man. There IS a new life -
Gal 2:20 tell us this.
Sanctification is progressive and not totally controlled by man.
Sanctification is the "present tense" part of our salvation and those who
are not experiencing spiritual growth have a problem.
quote:
RWE: Initial salvation? I don't get that.
We can know that we have eternal life. (1 John 5:13) What's not to get?
Interesting you look to 1 John, the book that tells us our faith
must be a reality to be real. The book that tell us if we live a life
of continual, wilful sin we do not know him.
quote:
But our certainty is not based on our degree of change.
Who said there was a spirituallity test we must pass?
I am arguing against optional holiness and useless faith.
Your the one who says even though there be NO change at all, no worries!
Would you say this to a man who has been "saved" 30 years and can't
even give a confession of his faith?
GC - we recently saw 4 young men baptized in our church. Over the last 2 months,
of the four only one has even come to church on Sunday, and him only twice!
According to your theology, he is saved based on his profession of faith and
I am not to "judge" the state of his salvation.
According to my theology, these young men are not desiring fellowship, one
of the main indicators of an unregenerate person. So I must go to them and
talk to them - not about why they don't want to come to church - I must
talk to them about what they think their conversion is all about.
According to your theology, we are eternally secure, but we can fall away
and still be saved, because spiritual growth and sanctified living are optional
and we are just fruit inspectors if we look at people's Christian lives.
According to my theology we cannot fall away and Christ becomes our
Lord BECAUSE we are eternally secure.
I'll just say this: You cannot lose what you never had.
When we are saved from hell we are saved for life. The church is built on
believers who do more than pay lip service to God. The greatest witness
a person has is his life after regeneration, not "standing on the promises of God".
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/10/2008 9:15:19 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1825
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
I see it as future salvation, when we will be sinless.
So you see it as part of our salvation.
Then why not see sanctification as part of our salvation rather than
an option or "add on" IF the believer feels like it?
No. I see it as "salvation" of a different sort. It's a semantic distinction actually. The word "salvation" can have many implications or meanings, depending on its context.quote:
quote:
It is NOT about their sanctification.
Then you are at odds with most interpretations of this verse.
Look up the parallels.
I don't know about "most." I have certainly heard it that way for years. I recently had a conversation with a friend who doesn't believe in eternal security and he challenged this more common interpretation of this verse. He pointed out that some translations translate "koinia" in verse 5 as "partnership." It should certainly be clear that Paul is talking about spreading the gospel in verse five. In verse 4, he says he thanks God that they participate with him in his spreading of the gospel "from the first day until now." It is only sensible that he speaks about his confidence that they will continue doing this "forever."
I go with the majority interpretations only when they make the most sense, not because they are the majority.quote:
Experiencing God in our lives is not always a "quantifying" experience, just
like trying to quantify the reality of my wifes' love. She makes me coffee? Maybe.
Love is an action and I could not say my wife truly loves me if she
says she does than then has an affair with another man.
I believe our faith is also useful. For example being able to cope, make wise decisions,
know who the best pres candidate is, etc.
If you cannot quantify this "reality," then I would humbly suggest we have no business telling someone else that they might not have it.
quote:
1Cor 15:2 gives a clear warning that we may have believed in vain.
See how easy you jumped to that verse without actually having studied the context? The context is that the Corinthians had been challenging Paul's apostolic authority. Since they became Christians by receiving his message of salvation, they were undermining the very message they believed.
He is not urging them to reexamine their salvation, he is refuting their nonsensical challenge to his authority. Check it out.
quote:
Interesting that you seem to think our faith need not be real, there not necessarily be fruit, and we not necessarily persevere - all marks of a true believer - so the only apparent assurance you can have is what you think you believe? You really want to trust your mind for your confidence, or trust the new birth and the transformation?
Huh? Who said that I didn't think our faith needs to be real? It's just that when you tell someone their faith might not be real, there should be a reason for besides quipping vague terms like "reality."
I have both mind and emotion, not just emotion.
And there are people who don't persevere. If it were inevitable, there would be no need to warn people to persevere.
quote:
Whose judging anyone's salvation. Actually my opinion is most of
us will never truly know we are saved until we are glorified, such
is the weakness of our sinful minds and the motives.
Come now. You were judging a certain denomination as leaving multitudes of people unsaved. What the reason was I don't know.
Look at 1 John 5:13. "These things I have written that you may know you have eternal life." So, yes we can know. I have known for 41 years.
quote:
Your theology leads people to the narrow gate and abandons them with the heresy that our Spiritual regeneration is a hidden work of God and our transformation does not necessarily evidence itself in our lives and lifestyles.
"The wind blows were it would...but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." (1 John 3:8)
Certainly some people can be saved and lack assurance. Some people can falsely believe they are saved. If they tell me they are saved, I do seek to discover what message they believed. If I know them well and their lives indicate the opposite, I do not offer them assurance based upon their words alone. But it is possible that there may be things I don't see.quote:
And yes, I AM pointing a finger - look at the general state of the church -
worldly and run out of the flesh by and large. Ted Turner once said if
he needed spiritual advice he would seek the Dahli Lama and if he
needed a CEO he would seek a baptist preacher.
Yeah buddy! There's a stand-up guy for you!! Like he knows a lot about the doctrine of salvation.
The world would say that we aren't true followers of Christ if we criticize a person who practices homosexuality.
quote:
Do we teach prospective converts their new life will be costly? God forbid!
Salvation is free to us.(Eph. 2:8-9)
quote:
Anybody who places their confidence on what they supposedly "believe"
has no confidence at all. But the one who places his confidence in
the radical changes wrought by a supernatural work of God - no
he has real confidence! There IS an old man. There IS a new life -
Gal 2:20 tell us this.
"Whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life..." (John 3:16)
These things I have written that you may believe... and that by believing you may have life in his name." (John 20:30)
"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God..." (Romans 5:1)
quote:
Sanctification is progressive and not totally controlled by man.
Sanctification is the "present tense" part of our salvation and those who are not experiencing spiritual growth have a problem.
I agree mostly if I understand what you are saying. I would phrase it as "ever progressing."quote:
quote:
But our certainty is not based on our degree of change. Who said there was a spirituallity test we must pass?
I wouldn't quite phrase it that way but there are those who seem to infer that. What we have here is a failure to communicate.
quote:
I am arguing against optional holiness and useless faith.
Your the one who says even though there be NO change at all, no worries!
Huh? I spoke earlier about erecting straw men and then attempting to demolish them. This is a good example.quote:
GC - we recently saw 4 young men baptized in our church. Over the last 2 months,
of the four only one has even come to church on Sunday, and him only twice!
Hmmm. And you dare criticize the Baptists? There must have been some reason to baptize them. Your church baptized them based upon a profession, didn't they?
quote:
According to your theology, he is saved based on his profession of faith and I am not to "judge" the state of his salvation.
I didn't say he is saved based upon his profession. I would say he is saved based on his faith. It is not something I would guarantee. I have no idea what happened in that person's heart. I can only go by what he tells me. I do not offer assurance to a person who is living in sin. In such situations, there is usually a big question mark in my mind unless I see further evidence.
quote:
Would you say this to a man who has been "saved" 30 years and can't even give a confession of his faith?
See my above answer.quote:
According to my theology, these young men are not desiring fellowship, one of the main indicators of an unregenerate person. So I must go to them and talk to them - not about why they don't want to come to church - I must talk to them about what they think their conversion is all about.
I have no problem with that course of action. But it is not my job to tell them whether or not they are saved. And, begging your pardon, it is not your's either. Of course, if they give no indication of being saved, it is quite possible that nothing happened. But God is the judge of that.
quote:
According to your theology, we are eternally secure, but we can fall away and still be saved,...
If we are saved, then we are secure, IMHO. And yes, some people fall away. I reference Mark 4. Some hear the word, receive it and then fall away. Jesus' words, not mine.quote:
According to my theology we cannot fall away and Christ becomes our Lord BECAUSE we are eternally secure.
If we cannot fall away, then why warn people not to?
quote:
...because spiritual growth and sanctified living are optional and we are just fruit inspectors if we look at people's Christian lives.
I said neither of those things.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 10/10/2008 9:12:44 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/11/2008 8:22:58 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2375
Status: offline
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quote:
The context is that the Corinthians had been challenging Paul's apostolic authority. Since they became Christians by receiving his message of salvation, they were undermining the very message they believed.
He is not urging them to reexamine their salvation, he is refuting their nonsensical challenge to his authority. Check it out.
He is not telling them to examine their salvation, bu to "examine their faith",
examine what the believe and seek to determine is "Christ in them?"
If we fail the test we have believe in vain as Heb 3:14 tells us.
You might be right about the larger context, but do you also say you don't live in
Corinth or Galatia, or Ephesus and your motives are not the same as the audiences,
so nothing he says to them applies to you?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/11/2008 8:30:04 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2375
Status: offline
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quote:
Huh? Who said that I didn't think our faith needs to be real?
You do. Free Grace theology does.
It says basically "no worries" - you believed and we all sin, so what?
It tells people they are secure based on what they believe and not
the transformation the Holy Spirit brings about in being born again.
quote:
It's just that when you tell someone their faith might not be real,
there should be a reason for besides quipping vague terms like "reality."
How do we cope with tragedy?
How do we handle money?
How do we raise our kids?
I can go on and on.
quote:
And there are people who don't persevere. If it were inevitable, there would be
no need to warn people to persevere.
The warnings are mostly about believing false teaching like OSAS.
The warnings are there is a narrow road, not just a narrow gate.
You and others of the Free Grace theology ignore the narrow road
and blame those like me that believe Gospel not only "I believed"
but "I am believing" of being fruit inspectors and judging people.
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The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/11/2008 11:11:06 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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Let's look at what J-Mac says...
Straight from the website...
An Introduction to Lordship Salvation
To put it simply, the gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sin and yield to Christ's authority. This, in a nutshell, is what is commonly referred to as lordship salvation.
Can this be construed as PRIOR to salvation ?
What does he mean by "repenting' and "yielding" ?
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Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/11/2008 11:15:05 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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From the same document-
In contrast, easy-believism teaches that saving faith is simply being convinced or giving credence to the truth of the gospel and does not include a personal commitment to the person of Christ.
Who teaches this ? ...anyone's church ?
Is this in anyone's "Statement of Faith" ?
What is this "truth of the gospel" ?
Isn't Jesus as Savior/Messiah/Son of God gospel ?
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/11/2008 11:21:27 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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One more for good measure...
Scripture teaches that Jesus is Lord of all, and the faith He demands involves unconditional surrender (Rom. 6:17-18; 10:9-10). In other words, Christ does not bestow eternal life on those whose hearts remain set against Him (James 4:6). Surrender to Jesus' lordship is not an addendum to the biblical terms of salvation; the summons to submission is at the heart of the gospel invitation throughout Scripture.
What is MacArthur saying here ?
Does it sound like the gospel message ?
Isn't EVERYONE against God at some point ?
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/12/2008 4:40:41 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1825
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
He is not telling them to examine their salvation, bu to "examine their faith",
examine what the believe and seek to determine is "Christ in them?"
Which has what to do with the interpretation you were suggesting? Their "faith" (meaning their relationship with Christ) was based on the message Paul preached.
quote:
You might be right about the larger context, but do you also say you don't live in Corinth or Galatia, or Ephesus and your motives are not the same as the audiences, so nothing he says to them applies to you?
Sure. But I would not apply it as you did.
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You do.
Please don't tell me what I believe, unless you want to accept the label "Calvinist" about which I was mistaken earlier.
quote:
Free Grace theology does.
It says basically "no worries" - you believed and we all sin, so what?
It tells people they are secure based on what they believe and not
the transformation the Holy Spirit brings about in being born again.
Someone has shipped you a load of baloney. Go look in the barnyard stable. You'll find more.
There are certainly some in the Free Grace that I would take serious issue with, the same as you would in the Lordship Salvation community. It's not all monolithic, not even in the Lordship Salvation community. For example, Earlier, you said that you didn't think that the Lordship Salvation community believed that the call to discipleship and the call to salvation were synonymous. I assume you don't believe that. I pointed out that John MacArthur taught that. If you don't agree with him in every detail, why would you expect me to believe with everyone in the Free Grace community in every detail.
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How do we cope with tragedy?
How do we handle money?
How do we raise our kids?
I can go on and on.
So, someone who fails in any of those areas isn't saved? Wherever did you find that in the Bible? Those are certainly challenges. But we do not base our salvation on them.
quote:
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And there are people who don't persevere. If it were inevitable, there would be no need to warn people to persevere. The warnings are mostly about believing false teaching like OSAS.
There are certainly people who don't persevere. But they say nothing about whether or not they lose their salvation. BTW. Please don't get into that. This is not a thread for that.
BTW. If you are challenging OSAS, you are in the wrong thread. The debate about Lordship Salvation is within the larger community of evangelicals who accept OSAS as a given. IF you don't accept that, you have wandered into the wrong thread. Please take your objections to OSAS somewhere else.
quote:
You and others of the Free Grace theology ignore the narrow road
and blame those like me that believe Gospel not only "I believed" but "I am believing" of being fruit inspectors and judging people.
Actually, no. I believe both "I am believing" and "I believed." I also believe in the narrow road. I believe there is an appropriate place for judging people. I just stop short of deciding whether or not they are unsaved unless they tell me outright that they are not.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 10/12/2008 4:57:11 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/13/2008 5:49:27 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1825
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
"Calvinist" about which I was mistaken earlier.
Touche' GC!! I AM............... R O F Ling
You are what? Telling me what I believe or telling me that you are actually a Calvinist?
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Go investigate Free Grace Theology - its baloney alright
I am not a newbie to the issue of Free Grace Theology. When I compare what you are saying about it compared with what I believe, I can only conclude that you haven't investigated it.
Calvinism isn't monolithic.
Arminianism isn't monolithic.
Lordship salvation isn't monolithic.
What makes you think your comment "you do" in answer to my question "Who said that I didn't think our faith needs to be real?"---what makes you think you are on target?
You are doing what people typically do. In post #19, I said: "Typically, they think they understand some position, then explain it poorly, attribute it to some imagined percentage of a population that they can't even prove is a majority, and then rail against it as some straw man enterprise--then self-congratulate themselves that they have destroyed some popular icon."
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...its a question of whether one's faith is useful.
I will grant that there are some whose faith isn't useful. But if you are suggesting that they aren't saved, I have to disagree that you have any scripture on your side.
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Do you expect there to be no definite reality to our faith?
The problem I have with your question is that it isn't specific enough. Charismatics et al would say that [our] faith has no reality unless we are filled with the HS with the evidence of speaking in tongues. Therefore, they would say that your faith isn't real.
The word "reality," as you're asking, is connected to no scripture explaining what you mean by the word and what scripture means by the word. It sounds good as long as one doesn't pin it down to scriptural evidence. That amounts to a loaded question. You can mean whatever you want by it and if I disagree with how you define it, it means that I would wind up denying something I previously agree with but had no idea what direction you were going with it.
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Hey! The moderators do their job quite well!
I moderated for almost a year on CW. I know pretty much what they have to go through.
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Its a tragedy that some people ignore the whole gospel.
So grace through faith isn't enough? (Eph. 2:7-8) We also have to persevere or we are not saved? Are we saved in the moment we believe or are we saved over time after we persevere?
Are we talking about the precondition(s) for salvation or the results of it?
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ALOT of people who believe gospel reductionism will be doing on that day, when they hear God say "I never knew you".
As well as Calvinists, Arminians, Chartismatics and so forth.
Matthew 7:23 says nothing about the gospel of faith in Christ alone apart from works. It says that those who depend on works (or the evidence thereof) for entering the kingdom won't.
Regarding perseverance, please read
Luke 8:13 (ASB)
"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away."
Mark 4:16-17 (ASB)
"In a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy;
and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away"
Matt. 13:20-21 (ASB)
The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
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Remain in me, abide in me - its not an option, its evidence.
I didn't say it was. But the issue of Lordship Salvation involves the question as to what the precondition(s) for salvation. As for what comes after, that is different. Abiding in Christ, perseverance and so forth are something we are commanded to do. But the ultimate question is: "can we completely and secure before we ever do any of those things?" And, does the Bible say that we always shall abide and persevere or are we commanded to do so? It seems to me that if it is inevitable, there would be no command.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 10/13/2008 6:15:42 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Lordship Salvation - 10/13/2008 9:18:31 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2375
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
You are what? Telling me what I believe or telling me that you are actually a Calvinist?
I am a regular Calvinist ripper, my friend!
Its just ironic because thats what they ARE best at - telling us we're wrong!
quote:
I am not a newbie to the issue of Free Grace Theology. When I compare what
you are saying about it compared with what I believe, I can only conclude that you haven't investigated it.
I have investigated it. GES
Your view of sanctification is right out of the FGM.
quote:
What makes you think your comment "you do" in answer to my question
"Who said that I didn't think our faith needs to be real?"
---what makes you think you are on target?
The whole overarching view of the New Testament, particularly James and all
the warning verses, John 14, 15, Col 2:6 and many, many others.
My presupposition is that God saved me based on my faith. Once he comes
to dwell in me through the Holy Spirit, I receive Christ as my Savior and Lord.
Since Jesus is the author and perfector of my faith and God began a good work
in me and will see it to the end, and I will share in Christ if I hold firmly to the
end the faith I began with, yes, I do believe our faith must be a reality to be real.
quote:
...its a question of whether one's faith is useful.
You said "No, spiritual growth is not a given."
How can our faith be useful if it isn't growing?
You also said, "I view progressive sanctification as a decision that we make.
And while I would not view it as the same thing as discipleship,
I would view it as concurrent with it. "
Which suggests you think holiness and sanctification of the believer are not doctrines,
but merely "personal decisions". I think holiness is a guarantee.
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I will grant that there are some whose faith isn't useful. But if you are
suggesting that they aren't saved, I have to disagree that you have any
scripture on your side.
So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him,
rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught,
and overflowing with thankfulness. Col 2:6-7.
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So grace through faith isn't enough? (Eph. 2:7-8)
We also have to persevere or we are not saved?
Not "have to" but "will".
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Are we saved in the moment we believe or are we saved over time after we persevere? I believe we possess the promise of eternal life when we believe.
Our salvation isn't complete until we receive our glorified bodies and enter heaven.
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But the issue of Lordship Salvation involves the question as to what
the precondition(s) for salvation. As for what comes after, that is different.
I strenously disagree!
The radical, supernatural act of regeneration by God has profound, lasting, and obvious effects!
We are set apart, aliens in the world, mind-transformed witnesses to His awesome power!
If we deny the power that saved us, we never had it!
quote:
Abiding in Christ, perseverance and so forth are
something we are commanded to do.
I see them as evidences of true faith.
quote:
Can we be secure before God begins his work of sanctification.
Will God begin his work in a false believer or deceived one?
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