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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 6:10:41 PM
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MissInnocent
Posts: 169
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clag4christ
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: clag4christ
quote:
I'd have to wonder about a man that willingly went along with a decision like. If he were my son-in-law, it would be unlikely that I'd ever trust him again.
I'm not sure why you're drawing that conclusion...
As a father of an adult daughter (35), I would wonder about his love for her to agree to let her risk her life.
Perhaps I'm an old foggie, but on major decisions we both have to agree before either will go forward with a decision. Her intentionally risking her life would be such a decision. She would not do it without my agreement to risk her life on a baby that will die, maybe even with suffering because of the point of development.
Would you doubt his love for her if they were called to be missionaries in a place where martyrdom were almost a certainty?
My husband is on board with my decision about ectopic pregnancies. We see eye to eye on everything. The baby would suffer through a termination as well...
I would understand my husband's concern for me risking my life. However, I would have to question his love if he tried to convince me to do something that he knew was against my conscience.
ETA: Jim, why would you not question the woman's decision to risk her life but you would question the man's decision to let her (and I hate to even say let) risk her life. As I already said LEGALLY, he can't stop her anyways.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 6:43:07 PM
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Memaw.
Posts: 2357
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From: Sunflower State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
As a father of an adult daughter (35), I would wonder about his love for her to agree to let her risk her life.
Perhaps I'm an old foggie, but on major decisions we both have to agree before either will go forward with a decision. Her intentionally risking her life would be such a decision. She would not do it without my agreement to risk her life on a baby that will die, maybe even with suffering because of the point of development.
Jimbo,
I am very interested in your viewpoint on a question I asked HERE.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 6:47:11 PM
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GroupW
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I'd have to wonder about a man that willingly went along with a decision like. If he were my son-in-law, it would be unlikely that I'd ever trust him again.
Personally, I'd go to nearly any extreme to pursuade my wife to end such a pregnancy. The best we could hope for is that the pregnancy terminates on its own & gets reabsorbed into the body. The next best thing we could hope for is that the tube bursts and the wife doesn't die.
I don't see any purpose that could possibly be served by waiting to see which bad outcome actually comes to pass.
I can be coldly logical on issues like that, but it would be where I fall on the topic.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 6:57:22 PM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
It's not for me to say when an innocent life should end. To some that may sound naive but to me it is the logical conclusion of my pro-life/anti-aboriton stance.
I guess that's the stance I was expecting. I understand the pro-life/anti-abortion stance even though I differ...this topic just wasn't "lining up" with that philosophy in my mind. (Best way I can put it.)
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 7:10:03 PM
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ladyichigo
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...Should I ever have to deal with a tubal pregnancy, what would God want me to do?
On one hand I have a life growing inside of me in an area that wasn't designed to carry a baby, but for reasons I cannot and will not fathom, God allowed it to happen.
On the other hand I have a loving husband and 2 children living and growing outside of my womb who need me.
I have never ever terminated a pregnancy, and I never had any miscarriages. I've never used oral contraceptives, IUDs, or any other type of birth control that deals with hormones.
I do believe that life begins at conception and that all life is precious, designed by God for His glory...fearfully and wonderfully made....but how do tubal babies fit in that category of "wonderfully" made? Wonderfully made for what?
I know it's not the baby's fault for being stuck in the tube and they deserve to live as much as the baby who made it down into the uterus. It's not mom's fault either, and it's definitely not the family's fault. The occurrence of tubals is something that's out of our hands...but one thing's for sure, God designed our bodies with pain receptors to alert us when something is not right, or something is happening to us in order protect us from harm. I wonder if that has anything to do with what God would want me to do in such case?
Anyway, I'm still very troubled by this issue.
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I'm not cool enough to come up with a witty quote, but God is still good.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 7:37:21 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Perhaps I'm an old foggie, but on major decisions we both have to agree before either will go forward with a decision. Her intentionally risking her life would be such a decision. She would not do it without my agreement to risk her life on a baby that will die, maybe even with suffering because of the point of development.
My husband and I are the same way, although we are a younger couple (early 30's). I know full well his feelings on most abortions (against), but if my life were at risk he would want me to have the termination, although of course he could not force me. I, personally, would consider it a betrayal of him and our children to put my life at such terrible risk.
Looking forward into the future, if my son in law were pressuring my daughter to risk her life in such a manner, no amount of "leaving and cleaving" would prevent me "interfering" in the strongest possible terms. Martial vows do not give any man the right to put his wife's life at risk.
If she told me on her own and away from her husband, that this is what she truely wanted, then I would accept it and do everything possible to help protect her life within the choice she made.
I don't know for sure, but I would be very surprised if insurance would pay for a woman to sit around in a hospital bed when there is a much cheaper treatment available. I do understand where Donna and Kim are coming from, but hospital beds are very expensive, and I would lay odds that they would not be paying out for such an arrangement.
It's possible you could get some Catholic charity to help with the expenses, but probably not insurance.
ETA: Please let me clarify. I am not trying to imply that Kim, Donna's or anyone else's husband would be callous with their wife's life. I was only stating a hypothetical situation where my daughter was conflicted about an ectopic pregnancy, and I felt my son in law was pressuring her to an action that could possible take her life.
< Message edited by Sideways -- 10/8/2008 7:58:37 PM >
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 8:33:51 PM
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PrincessDonna
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Some of you may not know, but one of the problems with ectopic pregnancy is that it is almost impossible to tell by ultrasound if the baby is in the tube or another kind of ectopic OR even if it may be in the uterus and just not look quite right to them for some reason. Ultrasounds do not show much clearly, and tubes do not appear on ultrasound. The uterus does, and the ovaries do, but the tubes do not.
That is why I urged my family member to wait and see for a little while, because she was not in a lot of pain, nor was she bleeding a lot. Her HCG was still going up, though not as fast as they like to see, and then it took 3 shots of the anti-cancer drug to stop the baby from growing. Three. It should only take one for a tubal pregnancy. I still wonder if that baby was really fine if they had just left it alone. 
Jimbo, in the case of your wife, if it had already ruptured and she was bleeding that badly, the baby had already died anyway. So there was no decision to make. And I am along with others who are saying what *I* would do, not saying what anyone else should or shouldn't do in that situation. Not even my family member...I'm just using her case as an example of why I would wait. Doctors are not always right. They do not know everything.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 8:49:58 PM
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phosadaud
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I agree that doctors are not always right, but on the other hand, how many people die every year "waiting" because they don't trust the doctor? I'm not saying that means we should blindly follow doctors - I don't. Just something to think about and use caution in.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 8:51:29 PM
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MissInnocent
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Donna, I attempted to PM you but for some reason it did not go through. I am curious about this anti-cancer shot to end a tubal pregnancy. I've never heard of such a thing. If you think it would hi-jack the thread please PM me the answer...but I am very curious.
You're very right about the ultrasounds not picking up ectopic pregnancies. I saw a woman on Montel Williams who'd had an abdominal pregnancy...she said they KNEW she was pregnant cause of her blood work and her tummy growing. But everytime they did an ultrasound they couldn't find the baby. It wasn't until they opened her up they saw exactly where it was.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 9:06:12 PM
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PrincessDonna
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It was methotrexate, a chemo drug. Her doctor explained it to her as "stopping abnormal cell growth" and that's why it works on tubals too. They use it to avoid surgery.
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<<-----------Brian + vacuum= sexy man!!
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 9:09:34 PM
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MissInnocent
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Knowing that chemo drugs can mess with the ovaries and stop fertility; I may chance the surgery if I were willing to end a tubal pregnancy.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/8/2008 9:12:31 PM
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PrincessDonna
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I don't think that was a danger with one shot of it. That would be different, I think, than going through round after round of chemo, KWIM?
But yeah, after what I just looked up on it, I most definitely would not go with that shot. It's purpose is to stop the beating heart. That explains why when it didn't work, they gave my family member another shot. And then another. 
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<<-----------Brian + vacuum= sexy man!!
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/9/2008 12:17:33 AM
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TammyIsBlessed
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If they can't see the ultrasound clearly how could the doctors KNOW. They might strongly suspect - but if there is little pain or bleeding and the ultrasound was inconclusive - I'd need a lot more evidence than that to terminate - if then. I may want to wait till bursting as well.
Does anyone have stats on the death rate of women whose tubal has burst and received immediate medical care?
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/9/2008 7:25:44 AM
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PrincessDonna
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quote:
They might strongly suspect - but if there is little pain or bleeding and the ultrasound was inconclusive - I'd need a lot more evidence than that to terminate - if then.
Exactly. It's not seeing the baby in the uterus where it belongs, along with the other symtpoms, that makes them strongly suspect. However, stranger things have happened than not seeing the baby for a few weeks, KWIM? Especially when the HCG continues to go up, which they watched with this family member for over a week before they gave her the shot...I could not do it. I could not make a forever decision with so little evidence of a problem.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/9/2008 8:09:20 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MissInnocent
With all due respect Jim, had your wife chosen the decision that Clag says she's make you'd have no choice but to go along. You can't FORCE her to have surgery (or take medicine) to end the pregnancy...
Dearest MissInnocent, perhaps this is a strange notion you, but my wife and I agree on major decisions together. Neither of us are lone rangers. We are one flesh.
How do I have a cue about she would act in such a situation?
Over Thirty Six years of a very close relationship as wife and husband in Christ Jesus. We do not always agree, but we are in unity on major things, willing to listen to each other, and not willing to take major steps alone or without a mutual agreement.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/9/2008 8:21:07 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MissInnocent
ETA: Jim, why would you not question the woman's decision to risk her life but you would question the man's decision to let her (and I hate to even say let) risk her life. As I already said LEGALLY, he can't stop her anyways.
Remember you asked for my answer. Don't go off on me for doing so:
A husband should love his wife as his own flesh according to scripture. He is also supposed to have a level, cool head in times of crisis. And in a case like this, he is the one that should be objective. I would wonder about my son-in-law's motives, his love, and his spiritual condition to agree to allow his wife to knowingly risk her life and his children's mother's life in a situation where there is NO CHANCE that the unborn child will live. None. Even if she were in the hospital when her tube burst, she could DIE herself, losing the mother of his living children and his soul-mate. Assuming that she is his soul-mate.
It would be different if the choice were between her life and the life of a viable child. With a tubal pregnancy, the only choice is the willingness to risk BOTH lives when the mother's need not be risked at all. To me, it is foolish to risk one life - a life that many rely on and love - for another that WILL die no matter what and might even develop enough to suffer during their tramatic death in the ruptured tube.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/9/2008 10:41:21 AM
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phosadaud
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Just a note for those who are concerned that doctors are all but guessing when they diagnose an ectopic pregnancy. In more recent years, hormone levels are used as ONE piece in the diagnostic evaluation. They are what can help determine that something isn't quite right. Ultrasound is what will confirm that the pregnancy is ectopic and yes, they can tell from the ultrasounds/other tests if the baby is implanted in the womb vs. the fallopian tube (which is where 95% of ectopic pregnancies occur) or ovary, etc. They do not diagnose (at least not NOW) an ectopic pregnancy simply because hormone levels are off. That is one piece of the puzzle, but not the "proof" physicians use to make a diagnosis.
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Resume Quotations: "I worked as a Corporate Lesion."
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/9/2008 10:52:12 AM
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Sideways
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Your wife is a lucky woman, JimboFletch. There are many times I, too, depend on my husband to provide strength and cool logic under difficult circumstances. I may be trained as an engineer, but there are times when my logic fails me. That would probably be one of those times.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/9/2008 11:03:14 AM
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Qtman
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I will not make a long post in this thread. Suffice it to say that Jimbo's posts speaks for both of us.
Good posts Jimbo.
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A friend gave me a report with Stats showing that 4,153,237 people got married last year. Now I don't want to start any trouble but I can't help but wonder. Shouldn't that be an even number?
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/9/2008 3:13:29 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
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I just am going to say one thing..and I am NOT picking on any one person personally.
One of the reasons abortion on demand became legal (sadly) in 1973 is because the proponents of it were fed up with EXTREME over the top pro-life positions that even extended to killing off the mother.
Food for thought.
So, if you argue that women should try and sit out ectopic pregnancies even up to the point of suiciding themselves, you are arguing for something that helped make abortion on demand for unnecessary reasons legal.
I will try to come back and provide links, but I don't have time right now..I have to go get the mail, and then go give my handicapped- sister- that-my- parents -did- not -abort-or-unnecessarily-pull-the-plug-on-when-given-the -opportunity- her bath and her lunch.
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Now thank we all our God, with hearts and hands and voices, what wondrous things He's done, in whom the world rejoices.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/9/2008 3:50:17 PM
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MissInnocent
Posts: 169
Joined: 5/3/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Dearest MissInnocent, perhaps this is a strange notion you, but my wife and I agree on major decisions together. Neither of us are lone rangers. We are one flesh.
How do I have a cue about she would act in such a situation?
Over Thirty Six years of a very close relationship as wife and husband in Christ Jesus. We do not always agree, but we are in unity on major things, willing to listen to each other, and not willing to take major steps alone or without a mutual agreement.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Remember you asked for my answer. Don't go off on me for doing so:
A husband should love his wife as his own flesh according to scripture. He is also supposed to have a level, cool head in times of crisis. And in a case like this, he is the one that should be objective. I would wonder about my son-in-law's motives, his love, and his spiritual condition to agree to allow his wife to knowingly risk her life and his children's mother's life in a situation where there is NO CHANCE that the unborn child will live. None. Even if she were in the hospital when her tube burst, she could DIE herself, losing the mother of his living children and his soul-mate. Assuming that she is his soul-mate.
It would be different if the choice were between her life and the life of a viable child. With a tubal pregnancy, the only choice is the willingness to risk BOTH lives when the mother's need not be risked at all. To me, it is foolish to risk one life - a life that many rely on and love - for another that WILL die no matter what and might even develop enough to suffer during their tramatic death in the ruptured tube.
I'll say I agree with you on some points but not all. I'll just say that I would hope my husband would understand my decision and respect me. Even though I would understand his worry for me.
Again I am not in any way saying you and your wife were wrong. I just don't know if it's something I could and would do in the same situation. And if I chose not to I would want my wishes respected.
ETA: What do you mean if she is his soul-mate? I know that's probably for an entirely different thread. I'm just curious esp. since some Christians don't believe in the concept of soul-mates and "the one." I'm not one of those people though. 
< Message edited by MissInnocent -- 10/9/2008 3:59:43 PM >
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/9/2008 3:53:48 PM
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MissInnocent
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I did a bit of googling last night and got some info that the tubes can bee seen on transvaginal ultrasounds, but not abdominal ones. But I never even heard of transvaginal till a couple years ago.
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RE: Ectopic Pregnancy - 10/9/2008 3:59:50 PM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10421
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From: Cow country, Upstate NY
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quote:
So, if you argue that women should try and sit out ectopic pregnancies even up to the point of suiciding themselves, you are arguing for something that helped make abortion on demand for unnecessary reasons legal.
I don't think anyone is arguing what anyone *else* should do. I have stated what I think I would do, as have a few others.
quote:
I did a bit of googling last night and got some info that the tubes can bee seen on transvaginal ultrasounds, but not abdominal ones. But I never even heard of transvaginal till a couple years ago.
That is not accurate, IME. Can you give a link? I have had all kinds of ultrasounds, both methods, and they have never seen tubes on any of them. I also know others who have had the same experience. Tubes can be seen with the aid of dye that shows up on regular xray, but I do not know of any other way to see them.
My family member's baby was never SEEN. Not in the womb. Not in the tube. Not in the ovary. Not in the abdomen. Never seen. Yet her HCG count was climbing. That combined with the fact that she had tiny twinges of pain and a tiny bit of spotting (in her words) leads me to think...hmmm...what if they were wrong?
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