|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 6:06:58 PM
|
|
|
His_4_Ever
Posts: 422
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho
Status: online
|
I would like to think the FBI/NSA/CIA/Secret Service would have done a considerable background check on all Politicians. I would like to think if there was a problem with someone's candidacy for President a red flag would go up.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 6:08:34 PM
|
|
|
MrFribbles
Posts: 1728
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
|
quote:
My advice to Obama is that if you want to be president then get off your butt and produce it.
It is that simple.
If someone on WND posted that McCain was once part of the KKK, do you think he would take the time to fight the allegation?
If someone accused Obama of being a member of the socialist party (oh wait, they did), do you think he would take the time to speak against that?
Did it ever occur to you that the reason Obama isn't moving to stop this is because there's nothing more than a tabloid allegation to stop?
Did it ever occur to you that you're probably just searching for empty arguments against Obama because it's easier than seriously considering the political issues at play?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 9:10:40 PM
|
|
|
TMeeks
Posts: 2118
Joined: 1/27/2007
Status: offline
|
And, again, I respond with this simple fact.
If, indeed, Obama was born in Hawaii as he claims, the following scenario is true.
When baby Obama was born, a physician filled out a Certificate of Live Birth and signed it. He then filed it with the Hawaii department of Vital Statistics where it was filed in a vault along with every other Certificate of Live Birth.
All Obama has to do is to produce an official copy of that original, physician signed, certificate to prove beyond any doubt that he was, in fact, born in Hawaii. Anyone else that was born on the same day that he was CAN produce one if they requested it. So, why hasn't he. That's all he has to do to put this question behind us.
Yet, he does not. Why?
You see, it's quite simple. A presidential candidate has a Constitutional obligation to prove citizenship with ironclad proof. A certified photocopy is the only ironclad proof that exists. A computer generated piece of paper is NOT ironclad. In fact, as I have pointed out, there are thousands of Photoshop experts that can create a phony one in a few minutes time.
The critical item is the physician's signature.
So, IT HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN THAT OBAMA IS A CITIZEN. If he was NOT born in Hawaii, in fact, there are serious flaws in his claim of citizenship. The Constitution and the technicalities of the law in this land still mean something to everyone but liberals.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Longfingers1
And again I pose the same question to you, yet one more time...
If it's been proven that Obama himself is a citizen, and again for anyone running for the highest office in the land, their citizenship has been proven, why is this non-issue such an issue with you? What makes you think you need to physically search for verification of his citizenship, have you done this with all prior candidates running for president? 
quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
What proof? You call that piece of paper, proof in light of the other questions swirling around his birth? Wow. You ARE easily led by the nose.
Anyone that thinks that the document that Obama is flashing could not be created in Photoshop in less than an hour and the embossing stamp in the time that it takes the metal to cool is just plain naive.
Why, I ask you does the DNC FIGHT DISCOVERY???
It's easy, just produce the photocopy of the original or release the Hawaii Vital Statistics to release a copy of the original and THIS ALL GOES AWAY. Failing that, he has not produced anything close to proof of citizenship.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 9:21:06 PM
|
|
|
TMeeks
Posts: 2118
Joined: 1/27/2007
Status: offline
|
Did it ever occur to you that the writers of the Constitution were serious when they specified that a president MUST be a natural born citizen?
Did it ever occur to you that if he is seated as president and anyone discovers proof that he was NOT born in Hawaii that it would represent a HUGE Constitutional Crisis?
Did it ever occur to you how simple it should be for him to comply with the law and produce a certified photocopy of his original vault version of his birth certificate if it exists and all this goes completely away in a heartbeat.
Unlike your illogical attempt at parallelism, one is a boolean negative where the accuser has the obligation to prove that he was a member of the KKK and the other a boolean positive where the obligation is on Obama to prove his worthiness. They are logical opposites.
And, it's far from a tabloid hit job. It's a legitimate and serious lawsuit.
But, now that you mention it, maybe we ought to ask Robert Byrd if he is STILL a member of the KKK.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
My advice to Obama is that if you want to be president then get off your butt and produce it.
It is that simple.
If someone on WND posted that McCain was once part of the KKK, do you think he would take the time to fight the allegation?
If someone accused Obama of being a member of the socialist party (oh wait, they did), do you think he would take the time to speak against that?
Did it ever occur to you that the reason Obama isn't moving to stop this is because there's nothing more than a tabloid allegation to stop?
Did it ever occur to you that you're probably just searching for empty arguments against Obama because it's easier than seriously considering the political issues at play?
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 10:15:16 PM
|
|
|
MrFribbles
Posts: 1728
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
|
quote:
Did it ever occur to you that the writers of the Constitution were serious when they specified that a president MUST be a natural born citizen?
I actually assumed they were kidding about that part. Thanks for clearing it up for me.
quote:
Did it ever occur to you that if he is seated as president and anyone discovers proof that he was NOT born in Hawaii that it would represent a HUGE Constitutional Crisis?
Which is why I know this whole thing is bunk. If there was even the slightest chance it was for real, McCain would have his people all over it. They're not.
quote:
Did it ever occur to you how simple it should be for him to comply with the law and produce a certified photocopy of his original vault version of his birth certificate if it exists and all this goes completely away in a heartbeat.
How do you know he hasn't? Do you really trust the word of WND?
quote:
And, it's far from a tabloid hit job. It's a legitimate and serious lawsuit.
Then why is no serious political player treating it as such?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 10:24:22 PM
|
|
|
Stephanos
Posts: 1100
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: online
|
I have a Certification just like Sen Obama. But here are some differences. A) I have a actual copy in my hands, not a photoshop of a copy. When I use this as my Birth Certificate, people know its real because you actually SEE the Seal of the Missouri Department of Health (it actually is a raised relief of the seal too...very hard to fake). B) What I have is NOT a TRUE Birth Certificate. On my form it actually says "This is a true certification of the name and birth facts recorded in this office". That is, that this Certification is to bear proof that the Missouri Department of Health has my full birth record on file.
Anyway, my issue is not that Sen Obama has shown this Birth Certification form, but rather that he has shown a photocopy of it. I have to show thsi form when I apply for jobs, get a Passport, ect. WHen i do those things, a photocopy is not acceptable, I have to show the ACTUAL FORM! So why does Sen Obama not have to do the same thing? Simple question. He is applying for a job, why does he not have to show the actual form?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 10:44:30 PM
|
|
|
TMeeks
Posts: 2118
Joined: 1/27/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
And, it's far from a tabloid hit job. It's a legitimate and serious lawsuit.
Then why is no serious political player treating it as such?
That is where you are wrong. The DNC apparantly thinks it is serious enough to try to STOP DISCOVERY!!! If it were trivial they'd simply comply, wouldn't they?
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 11:20:10 PM
|
|
|
wing2000
Posts: 1029
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: online
|
well Tmeeks, why don't you just take your evidence and file suit?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/10/2008 2:49:33 AM
|
|
|
Longfingers1
Posts: 444
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
And, again, I respond with this simple fact.
If, indeed, Obama was born in Hawaii as he claims, the following scenario is true.
When baby Obama was born, a physician filled out a Certificate of Live Birth and signed it. He then filed it with the Hawaii department of Vital Statistics where it was filed in a vault along with every other Certificate of Live Birth.
All Obama has to do is to produce an official copy of that original, physician signed, certificate to prove beyond any doubt that he was, in fact, born in Hawaii. Anyone else that was born on the same day that he was CAN produce one if they requested it. So, why hasn't he. That's all he has to do to put this question behind us.
Yet, he does not. Why?
You see, it's quite simple. A presidential candidate has a Constitutional obligation to prove citizenship with ironclad proof. A certified photocopy is the only ironclad proof that exists. A computer generated piece of paper is NOT ironclad. In fact, as I have pointed out, there are thousands of Photoshop experts that can create a phony one in a few minutes time.
The critical item is the physician's signature.
So, IT HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN THAT OBAMA IS A CITIZEN. If he was NOT born in Hawaii, in fact, there are serious flaws in his claim of citizenship. The Constitution and the technicalities of the law in this land still mean something to everyone but liberals.
Yet you still won't answer all the questions I asked for you, so I'll try one last time:
If it's been proven that Obama himself is a citizen, and again for anyone running for the highest office in the land, their citizenship has been proven, why is this non-issue such an issue with you? What makes you think you need to physically search for verification of his citizenship, have you done this with all prior candidates running for president?
I mean really we can go back and forth, but it really seems like it won't any difference to you one way or the other. You're really set on proving this man's citizenship, part of me is really begining to wonder that you're using this need to really want to know about his citizenship is referring to something else, so I won't waste my energy with you on this ridiculous issue any further.
God bless! 
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/10/2008 3:13:19 AM
|
|
|
Stephanos
Posts: 1100
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: online
|
Just a matter of understanding...
Believe it or not, one does not have to "prove" they are a citizen, by showing the BC to the government when they run for President. At no step in the process does the FEC ask for documentation. So unless you can show us where Sen Obama HAS gone to the FEC and showed them his papers, then saying he has proved that he is a citizen is dishonest and wrong.
Secondly, as I stated, most places of business who are looking to hire someone, will not except a photocopy of the Birth Certificate (either the actual "Live Birth" form or the Certificate of Birth) in applying for that job. If you or I were to show them a photocopy you would be asked to return with the real one before the hireing process could go forward. Sen Obama HAS shown a photocopy of the Certificate of Birth form. If it was a real BC then show it, and the problem is solved. Why should a candidate for office be above what every other ordinary citizen must do when they are applying for a job?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/10/2008 3:27:26 AM
|
|
|
Longfingers1
Posts: 444
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Just a matter of understanding...
Believe it or not, one does not have to "prove" they are a citizen, by showing the BC to the government when they run for President. At no step in the process does the FEC ask for documentation. So unless you can show us where Sen Obama HAS gone to the FEC and showed them his papers, then saying he has proved that he is a citizen is dishonest and wrong.
Secondly, as I stated, most places of business who are looking to hire someone, will not except a photocopy of the Birth Certificate (either the actual "Live Birth" form or the Certificate of Birth) in applying for that job. If you or I were to show them a photocopy you would be asked to return with the real one before the hireing process could go forward. Sen Obama HAS shown a photocopy of the Certificate of Birth form. If it was a real BC then show it, and the problem is solved. Why should a candidate for office be above what every other ordinary citizen must do when they are applying for a job?
And for the very last time...
If it's been proven that Obama himself is a citizen, and again for anyone running for the highest office in the land, their citizenship has been proven, why is this non-issue such an issue for any of you? What makes you think you need to physically search for verification of his citizenship, have you done this with all prior candidates running for president?
No other candidate's citizenship even in primaries have been questioned like this man's, and there's no call for proof by Palin (I've seen the short thread on McCain already), but yet this still continues... so it makes one wonder why some of you here are so set on proving this man's citizenship, part of me is really begining to wonder that you're using this need to really want to know about his citizenship is really referring to something else...
And that's really my last time responding to this silly thread.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/10/2008 3:33:01 AM
|
|
|
Stephanos
Posts: 1100
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: online
|
Just how has it been proven? Please tell us. Because the ONLY eveidence given has been a photocopy of a Certification of Birth. If there has been other evidence given, then tell us. Show us. But as it is a photocopy of a BC would NOT allow you to get a job in this country (legally anyway).
Again, what part of, when YOU apply for a job, and fill out the paperwork (ie W2's) YOU have to supply your employer with a HARD COPY of either your "Certificate of Live birth" (doctor signed form) or a "Certificate of Birth" (State issued form saying they have your records). You, me, everyone applying for a job has to show a hard copy! Period!
As such, please show just ONE instance where Sen Obama has produced a HARD COPY, not a PHOTOCOPY. Why should a candidate for President not be under the SAME rules that a ordinary citizen is.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/10/2008 8:57:02 AM
|
|
|
Closie
Posts: 304
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
|
I've never had to show my birth certificate to get a job.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/10/2008 9:44:15 AM
|
|
|
TMeeks
Posts: 2118
Joined: 1/27/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Longfingers1
If it's been proven that Obama himself is a citizen
That is the problem. It has NOT been proven. And, he is resisting the one thing that would prove it.
How can I answer a question that is based on a lie or false assumption?
You might think you are clever by wording your question as if it were a foregone conclusion that he HAS proven his citizenship. But, deception is not always as clever as the one floating it seems to think.
FactCheck.org, by the way, didn't even go to the trouble of comparing the security hatch that borders the document that Obama produced with an any other certification produced by the Hawaii Vital Statistics. The only way to do that is to find someone born in Hawaii, have them order a certification and then have them open the envelope in the presence of investigators. Then, use this copy as the comparison of the original that the Obama campaign produces.
But, the REAL problem with the FactCheck.Org images is that the EXIF data embedded in the photos they provide do not support their claims of the time and date that they took the pictures. Even if this was simply due to a camera that wasn't set up properly, it demonstrates that these people do NOT have the technical expertise to make the kind of conclusions that they made. Moreover, the pictures that they took were all taken in a 6 minute time frame. Based on the poor quality if the images, they either were not give the time or didn't care to make sure the images were in focus.
What strikes me about the photos is that they are shot in such a way that it is impossible to get a true measurement of the hatch that surrounds the certificate. A scan would have been a much better copy of the document for critical analysis.
Here is an article that probes the FactCheck.Org's Facts.
It is now the Federal Court and under our Constitution that is right place for these serious questions must be settled. If the court throws out this case, then we can never be sure that in the future that we have a president that IS in fact a natural born citizen by effectively neutering the Constitution by innaction.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/10/2008 9:48:48 AM
|
|
|
TMeeks
Posts: 2118
Joined: 1/27/2007
Status: offline
|
Of course, it depends on the job and the employer's following the law. That is why illegals are able to hold jobs. Self-serving employers purposely fail to ask for documentation.
But, if you ever work for someone that receives federal contracts, then they are required to confirm your legality to work and you will be asked for either working papers or a birth certifcate.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Closie
I've never had to show my birth certificate to get a job.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/10/2008 10:10:33 AM
|
|
|
MrFribbles
Posts: 1728
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
|
quote:
That is where you are wrong. The DNC apparantly thinks it is serious enough to try to STOP DISCOVERY!!! If it were trivial they'd simply comply, wouldn't they?
And again - they're doing nothing because it's below them. That's like saying the DNC thinks an accusation that Obama is, in fact, an alien from another world is serious because they aren't submitting a verified DNA test.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/10/2008 10:18:27 AM
|
|
|
Closie
Posts: 304
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
Of course, it depends on the job and the employer's following the law. That is why illegals are able to hold jobs. Self-serving employers purposely fail to ask for documentation.
But, if you ever work for someone that receives federal contracts, then they are required to confirm your legality to work and you will be asked for either working papers or a birth certifcate.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Closie
I've never had to show my birth certificate to get a job.
But I am a government employee. I work at a state university which gets bucketloads of federal money (lots of those earmarks come our way, thanks to Mitch McConnell). I've worked under a Federal grant through a consortium of universities (thanks to Trent Lott). Not one asked for my birth certificate.
And you never got back to me about whether or not my former co-workers kids could run president since they were born overseas to an American mother (who is still owns property, pays taxes, and votes here) and Greek father.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/10/2008 1:32:36 PM
|
|
|
TMeeks
Posts: 2118
Joined: 1/27/2007
Status: offline
|
Then your employers broke the law. Under the law you must provide two things for employment, proof of citizenship (here or abroad) and proof of identity. Here is the Form I-9 information.
I've never been able to even work as a consultant to a government contractor without these two forms of documents. If you have, it is only because the company or organization was lax in following the law.
As for your question regarding the family with a Greek father, it's moot unless they actually run for president. Their status has absolutely nothing to do with Obama.
As for working in a state university, I once worked for a state university on a government contract. It was run like a little mafia and, in my opinion, was a bigger and more blatant rip-off of the Federal Government's money than ANY private beltway bandit that I'd ever consulted with. We had to use the university's press shop at outrageous rates, the university's car rental facility at outrageous rates and paid the full value for a computer system over a tiny little 3 day rental. If the GAO ever did a deliverables vs. cost analysis between the university contracts and private industry contracts the public would be outraged at just how our public universities are ripping off the government.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Closie
quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
Of course, it depends on the job and the employer's following the law. That is why illegals are able to hold jobs. Self-serving employers purposely fail to ask for documentation.
But, if you ever work for someone that receives federal contracts, then they are required to confirm your legality to work and you will be asked for either working papers or a birth certifcate.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Closie
I've never had to show my birth certificate to get a job.
But I am a government employee. I work at a state university which gets bucketloads of federal money (lots of those earmarks come our way, thanks to Mitch McConnell). I've worked under a Federal grant through a consortium of universities (thanks to Trent Lott). Not one asked for my birth certificate.
And you never got back to me about whether or not my former co-workers kids could run president since they were born overseas to an American mother (who is still owns property, pays taxes, and votes here) and Greek father.
< Message edited by TMeeks -- 10/10/2008 1:40:03 PM >
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/10/2008 1:51:18 PM
|
|
|
_jjp_
Posts: 483
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
I thought a person was innocent until proven guilty in this country. Demanding proof that Obama's a citizen when it's been shown legally that is he is nothing short of the presumption that he's guilty of lying about it.
Oh wait I forgot. Obama's a Democrat and therefore he's not really a citizen in the first place. How silly of me. 
So by your standards anyone should be able to run for president whether they provide proof of citizenship or not? I mean it would be considering them guilty if we asked for proof. I will remember that the next time i go to get a loan, " no sir i will not provide you proof of identity, income, or intent to repay since that would be considering me guilty". All BO has to do is produce a refutation of this and it would disappear but instead he provides nothing of the sort.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/10/2008 2:06:52 PM
|
|
|
phreddy
Posts: 280
Joined: 3/28/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Longfingers1
Yet you still won't answer all the questions I asked for you, so I'll try one last time:
If it's been proven that Obama himself is a citizen, and again for anyone running for the highest office in the land, their citizenship has been proven, why is this non-issue such an issue with you? What makes you think you need to physically search for verification of his citizenship, have you done this with all prior candidates running for president?
I mean really we can go back and forth, but it really seems like it won't any difference to you one way or the other. You're really set on proving this man's citizenship, part of me is really begining to wonder that you're using this need to really want to know about his citizenship is referring to something else, so I won't waste my energy with you on this ridiculous issue any further.
God bless!
The problem with your question is that Obama has not been proven to be a natural born citizen who would be eligible to run for Presisdent. There is no organization that has that responsibility. So a democrat has filed suit to have it proven in court.
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
