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RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 1:54:35 PM
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Psalms274
Posts: 1396
Joined: 8/13/2005
From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
It doesn't matter if he was born overseas or not. His mother is an American citizen, as such he is a natural citizen of the United States by birth. Unless of course you're saying that the Constitution doesn't matter in this regard.
Not quite true. BOTH the father AND the mother must be American citizens for the child to be a natural born citizen. Obama's father was Kenyan, making him a KENYAN citizen if he was, in fact, born in Kenya.
There are precendant cases declaring that a child born to a U.S. citizen overseas having one foreign parent is NOT automatically a citizen of the United States.
The law is clear, however, with those born in the Panama Canal Zone. A specific law was written giving all who were born there full natural-born citizenship.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-born_citizen
Wiki is wrong on this one ... I will repeat it once more so y'all can quit with this silly arguing over a non-issue ...
Title 8 of the U.S. Code Section 1401 defines the following as people who are "citizens of the United States at birth:"
* Anyone born inside the United States
* Any Indian or Eskimo born in the United States, provided being a citizen of the U.S. does not impair the person's status as a citizen of the tribe
* Any one born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S.
* Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national
* Any one born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year
* Any one found in the U.S. under the age of five, whose parentage cannot be determined, as long as proof of non-citizenship is not provided by age 21
* Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)
* A final, historical condition: a person born before 5/24/1934 of an alien father and a U.S. citizen mother who has lived in the U.S.
Edited to clarify: Obama's dad at one time had dual citizenship, both from Kenya and the USA. He lost his Kenya citizenship and was a US citizen. His mam was also a citizen. So, as you can see, even if he was born in Kenya, he would still be a natural born citizen, the requirement he needs to be President of the United States.
You can find a direct source quoting the constitution verbatim.
_____________________________
I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
< Linus w/ a friends baby!
http://piswa.blogspot.com/
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RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 2:04:11 PM
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StephK
Posts: 2335
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
I grew up in Virginia and I know FOR A FACT that if you specifically ask for a photocopy of your birth certificate you CAN get one. The fact that you got a certification that a live birth certificate EXISTS is meaningless.
That is because the very nature of these certifications has made them easy to replicate and to falsefy. They are nothing more than computer generated documents and are NOT the same thing as a photocopied birth certificate.
YOU HAVE TO ASK FOR A PHOTOCOPY IF YOU WANT ONE. ALL OBAMA HAS TO DO IS ASK. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS ASK. Call up Virginia and see if I am not correct on this. While the state would like you to simply take the computer generated record since it is easier for them, members of my family, all Virginians, have official photocopies of their Certificates of Live Birth and not just the computer certifications.
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
I will ask you two simple questions.
Question #1
If I asked you to produce a Photocopy of your original Birth Certificate with the physician's signature, could you manage to procure it?
Of course you could.
Question #2
If you and every other American can do this, why can't Obama?
I will go one step further and put out a call for ANYONE that tried; but, was unable to get a Photocopy of their original birth certicate to let us know. I will be amazed if we find even one person in the thousands that read these forums who can say they tried and failed. Just one.
I needed one so I could get a passport. I got one similar to Obama's. I was born in Virginia. Not a photocopy of the original. Sorry to disappoint you.
It cost me $10 to get a certified copy of my birth certificate and it took 10 minutes. The certified copy has an embossed seal as proof of authenticity. Personally I think it should be required for all elected positions to have this information verified.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 2:09:35 PM
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adelphi_sky
Posts: 409
Joined: 10/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
quote:
ORIGINAL: adelphi_sky
You can type as slow as you want. lol He's probably refusing because it's ridiculous and no one is suing him over it because they think it's ridiculous also.
Uh... he IS being sued over it. The DNC thought it was important enough to try to stop the lawsuit. That's what this entire thread is about. Ya gotta keep up!!! 
quote:
What I'd like to ask is how many other candidates throughout the years was challenged on their citizenship AFTER they were nominated by a major party. Name me just one. I'd like to know what the outcome was. If it hasn't happen in history, funny that it's happening now.
Did it escape you attention that we've never had a candidate with a potential problem in this area before? 
We've never faced having a potential non-citizen actually run before. This is a first. Hence, the scrutinity. Is that so difficult to grasp?
Great! Anyone can create a lawsuit whether their claim is fact or not.
Second, we've never had this problem before? Why now? What's the difference? What is different from all the rest of the presidential candidates? I'm sure we can name a few who spent time abroad as children. Again, this guy's birth place slipped by the FBI, NSA, CIA, Secret Service, Congress, and Home Security. I was born here and there are some places I'm not authorized to go. If Obama slipped through the cracks to become leader of the world, that's the greatest magic trick ever.
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RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 2:14:10 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 2118
Joined: 1/27/2007
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Uh... your post is not going to help one bit. First, it is NOT in the Consitution and the link you posted is not a part of the Constitution. It is part of the code of law that has been passed, which is quite different from your description.
Secondly, I've not seen any documentation that Obama's father was a U.S. Citizen at the time of Obama's birth. I'd like to see that.
Thirdly, Section (D) and/or (G) seem to be the most applicable statutes to Obama's situation if he was, in fact, born in Kenya. These would be the ONLY parts of the statute that could be applied to his situation and in neither case are the conditions met. The problem is his mother's age made it impossible to satisfy the requirements.
I understand that this is a complex subject. But, it is an important subject and one worth taking the time a trouble to get up to speed on. You had the right idea. But, you did not look at the details closely enough and came to the wrong conclusions.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Psalms274
quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
It doesn't matter if he was born overseas or not. His mother is an American citizen, as such he is a natural citizen of the United States by birth. Unless of course you're saying that the Constitution doesn't matter in this regard.
Not quite true. BOTH the father AND the mother must be American citizens for the child to be a natural born citizen. Obama's father was Kenyan, making him a KENYAN citizen if he was, in fact, born in Kenya.
There are precendant cases declaring that a child born to a U.S. citizen overseas having one foreign parent is NOT automatically a citizen of the United States.
The law is clear, however, with those born in the Panama Canal Zone. A specific law was written giving all who were born there full natural-born citizenship.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-born_citizen
Wiki is wrong on this one ... I will repeat it once more so y'all can quit with this silly arguing over a non-issue ...
Title 8 of the U.S. Code Section 1401 defines the following as people who are "citizens of the United States at birth:"
* Anyone born inside the United States
* Any Indian or Eskimo born in the United States, provided being a citizen of the U.S. does not impair the person's status as a citizen of the tribe
* Any one born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S.
* Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national
* Any one born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year
* Any one found in the U.S. under the age of five, whose parentage cannot be determined, as long as proof of non-citizenship is not provided by age 21
* Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)
* A final, historical condition: a person born before 5/24/1934 of an alien father and a U.S. citizen mother who has lived in the U.S.
Edited to clarify: Obama's dad at one time had dual citizenship, both from Kenya and the USA. He lost his Kenya citizenship and was a US citizen. His mam was also a citizen. So, as you can see, even if he was born in Kenya, he would still be a natural born citizen, the requirement he needs to be President of the United States.
You can find a direct source quoting the constitution verbatim.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 2:33:27 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 2118
Joined: 1/27/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: adelphi_sky
Great! Anyone can create a lawsuit whether their claim is fact or not.
Second, we've never had this problem before? Why now? What's the difference? What is different from all the rest of the presidential candidates? I'm sure we can name a few who spent time abroad as children. Again, this guy's birth place slipped by the FBI, NSA, CIA, Secret Service, Congress, and Home Security. I was born here and there are some places I'm not authorized to go. If Obama slipped through the cracks to become leader of the world, that's the greatest magic trick ever.
So, the way to find out if a lawsuit is wacky or not is to (1) allow discovery and (2) produce a photocopy of the original birth certificate. What is so hard about that?
I don't know for sure where he was born. I simply know that if it were any other candidate, the press would be doing their jobs and be all over this. But, Obama-mania has infected the press to the point where they have less intregrity than the hookers on Chicago street corners.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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The lady doth protest too much, methinks. - 10/9/2008 3:08:09 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 2118
Joined: 1/27/2007
Status: offline
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There is a famous, and oft-misquoted line from Shakespeare
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."
Some may question why I am bothering to post in this thread since the basic premise that we could actually be having a person running for president that doesn't actually fulfill the Constitutional citizenship requirements is SUCH an outlandish thought that we have a hard time conceiving it could be happening.
But, when you are tempted to think that those in whom you trust to vet a candidate way before it gets to this point have actually done so, just remember that there is truth behind the story of the King's New Coat. It wasn't the king's court or the gentry that dared to tell the king he was naked. It was a commoner who valued truth more than party.
So, back to Shakspeare's quote. It seems to me that the DNC's joining the fray in an attempt to stop the DISCOVERY process actually raised the stakes on this question. "The lady (DNC) doth protest too much, methinks."
This is a serious question having Constitutional ramifications and until it is resolved either legally or by Obama producing a simple piece of paper having a copy of the original certificate that was filed at his birth, I will continue to insist that we know that our Constitution is being respected.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 3:45:40 PM
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bgwill3
Posts: 62
Joined: 1/24/2008
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I am not sure what the claim is:
(1) The document Obama has produced is not acceptable proof of his U.S. birth, and, therefore, is not acceptable proof of his citizenship;
or
(2) Notwithstanding the fact that it is a "certification of birth" that has been duly issued by the State of Hawaii (ostensibly); and notwitshtanding the fact that it is accepted by the State Department (and other government agencies) as proof of Obama's U.S. birth (and, therefore, his US citizenship); it is not the technically defined "certification of live birth". Thus, Obama's refusal (or reluctance) to provide the "certification of live birth" gives you pause as to the veracity of his U.S. birth.
Which of these two paragraphs comes closest to your opinion? (I am trying to understand.)
quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
The problem for the country is that the issue will not go away even if he becomes president. It will always be over his head waiting to bring him down.
Here is the issue. Original birth certificates are relatively complex documents. Here is a sample of the U.S. Standard Certificate of Live Birth.
While Birth Certicates might have been less complex they are not nearly as sparse as the document that Obama has produced. What he should produce is a photocopy of the original document that was signed by his mother and the attending physician. That is NOT what he has produced.
Here is a WikiAnswers discussion of the difference between the photocopy document and the short form that Obama claims is his 'birth certificate'. It concerns Florida; but, the principles are the same.
One has to ask why the DNC decided to ask for relief from DISCOVERY? You would think that as serious as this question is, they would WELCOME DISCOVERY?
If they think they can escape this once Obama is in office, they are sadly mistaken. Perhaps they feel that it would amount to such a constitutional crisis that people would be loath to find that he was not qualified by birth. But, they are wrong.
As I find samples of other states' Certificates of Live Birth, I will post them here. People should understand that what Obama, and unfortunately FactCheck.org are calling a birth certificate is NOT a photocopy of the original document.
California Certificate of Live Birth
Idaho Certificate of Live Birth
***********************************************************
THE FOLLOWING ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT LINKS IN THIS MESSAGE!
***********************************************************
Here is a link to a post by a person that has a genuine Hawaii Certificate of Birth for 1971. They claim that it does not look at all like the one Obama is claiming to be official. In fact, they've posted images that show the radical differences in the following link.
Actual Hawaii Birth Certificate side-by-side with Obama's claimed certificate.
quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
If the matter of whether or not Obama was born on American soil could so easily be proved, why is Obama, or anyone else, so reluctant to provide the proof?
When are politicians, going to learn that trying to cover something up, even if you may be perfectly innocent, usually ends up much worse than being open about the origional charges.
This whole issue may indeed be about nothing but not being open about the issue is going to harm Obama in the long run.
_____________________________
‡ Brian ‡
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RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 4:03:42 PM
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raivyne
Posts: 916
Joined: 8/28/2008
Status: online
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Its very interesting that my dad was born in the state of Oklahoma in 1941. I ran across his doctor signed birth certificate a few years ago and it looked just like the one that was posted in TMeeks' link (the 1971 of the people's daughter) except his was black writing on white background.
I just thought it was interesting that 30 years later in a different state they looked so similar... but Obama's photocopy looks nothing like either of them.
quote:
Title 8 of the U.S. Code Section 1401 defines the following as people who are "citizens of the United States at birth:"
* Anyone born inside the United States
* Any Indian or Eskimo born in the United States, provided being a citizen of the U.S. does not impair the person's status as a citizen of the tribe
* Any one born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S.
* Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national
* Any one born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year
* Any one found in the U.S. under the age of five, whose parentage cannot be determined, as long as proof of non-citizenship is not provided by age 21
* Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)
* A final, historical condition: a person born before 5/24/1934 of an alien father and a U.S. citizen mother who has lived in the U.S.
Edited to clarify: Obama's dad at one time had dual citizenship, both from Kenya and the USA. He lost his Kenya citizenship and was a US citizen. His mam was also a citizen. So, as you can see, even if he was born in Kenya, he would still be a natural born citizen, the requirement he needs to be President of the United States.
I would also like to say that IF Obama's father wasn't a citizen (dual or otherwise) when Obama was born, I can't find where the above would apply to him IF he was born in Kenya.
_____________________________
P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens
What if God is asking us for a sign?
Knowledge is proud; wisdom is humble.
Patiently waiting for my KSA
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RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 4:20:48 PM
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Longfingers1
Posts: 444
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline
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Wow... really? Why all the frivolous threads about this man, my goodness. If you have a problem with the polocies that he's actually proposed then start a thread to discuss it but going on about whether or not he's a citizen, if he's a terriorist, if he's palling around with terriorsts, and such that aren't based on hard facts, but are instead hearsay and gossip is crazy. There's various scriptures that denouce gossip, one that comes to mind is Psalms 20:19:
He who (S)goes about as a slanderer reveals secrets,
Therefore do not associate with (T)a gossip.
So is you aren't able to find real facts and evidence that come from a reputable source that can verify such claims or hearsay that you hear (this goes for any candidate and even beyond polotics, anyone), we should try to refrain from posting rumors. There's plenty of non Christian sites for them because this isn't Entertainment Tonight, The Insider or any other gossip forum... goodness...
< Message edited by Longfingers1 -- 10/9/2008 4:36:14 PM >
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RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 4:32:25 PM
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Psalms274
Posts: 1396
Joined: 8/13/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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quote:
I would also like to say that IF Obama's father wasn't a citizen (dual or otherwise) when Obama was born, I can't find where the above would apply to him IF he was born in Kenya.
From what I have found, he was a citizen. Dual citizenship means he was a citizen of Kenya and the USA at one point. If he was not a citizen, but a national, which is an immigrant who is here legally, the fourth one down on the list works. (Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national) The second to last one one the list also works. (Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time))
_____________________________
I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
< Linus w/ a friends baby!
http://piswa.blogspot.com/
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RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 4:37:18 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1100
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: online
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Point of fact, my three cousins were all born in the Bahamas. You see their mother, my aunt, is native bahamian. She is in the US on a Marriage Visa. Both her and my uncle wanted the children to have the option to decide where to live when they got the chance. This even has helped one of my cousins as he was on the Bahamian 2010 Word Cup Football (soccer) team....(before they lost to Jamaica...grr). Anyway, after each child was born, when they came back to the United States (Minnesota) they had to go to the local SS office and for lack of a better term "register" the children as US citizens. They had to bring all the birth documents from the Bahamas, my Aunts Birth documents from the Bahamas, My aunts Marriage Visa, and my Uncles birth documents. Just because my uncle was a US citizen did not make my cousins US citizens automatically. They STILL had to go register the children, obtain their SSN, the whole 9 yards. Again it was NOT automatic.
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RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 4:38:27 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 2118
Joined: 1/27/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bgwill3
I am not sure what the claim is:
(1) The document Obama has produced is not acceptable proof of his U.S. birth, and, therefore, is not acceptable proof of his citizenship;
or
(2) Notwithstanding the fact that it is a "certification of birth" that has been duly issued by the State of Hawaii (ostensibly); and notwitshtanding the fact that it is accepted by the State Department (and other government agencies) as proof of Obama's U.S. birth (and, therefore, his US citizenship); it is not the technically defined "certification of live birth". Thus, Obama's refusal (or reluctance) to provide the "certification of live birth" gives you pause as to the veracity of his U.S. birth.
Which of these two paragraphs comes closest to your opinion? (I am trying to understand.)
Item #1 is the issue.
There are two forms of validation for most purposes when it comes to ascertaining and validating one's birth.
The best document is an exact photocopy of the original, doctor signed, Certificate of Live Birth. This generally looks like a reverse image for older documents since most are on microfilm. Obama cannot or refuses to product his document. It would tell us the name of the physician and the name of the hospital, etc.
However, these days, the easiest document for a state to issue is what is known as a "Certification of Birth" which is a computer printout with a state seal that includes just partial information from the original "Certificate of Live Birth". The document that Obama has produced is in this format.
The problem with the latter format is that it is easily counterfeited since no hand written signatures are on the computer generated copy. These documents are created fraudulently all over this country easch and every day for illegals. So, from a security standpoint a computer document isn't as good as a photocopy of the original that DOES have the physician's signature.
Again, here is a very clear explanation of the process in Florida and most states.
One of the reasons why this issue came to the forefront has to do with the fact that obama and his half-sister differed in their story of his birth by claiming the birth took place at two different hospitals. That raised alarms. Then, to make matters worse, some of Obama's relatives in Kenya declared that he was born there and that they had witnessed his birth. Whether they were trying to cash in on his fame or not isn't clear. But, it did muddy the waters even further. Finally, there were issues that surfaced around the papers that were filed for him when he went to Indonesia with his step-father. In those papers he is described not as an American; but, an African.
Even with all these questions swirling in the air, Obama steadfastly refused to produce a photocopy of his original certificate of live birth. Since they are easy to get, one has to wonder why.
What raised the ante was that a Clinton supporter filed suite asking him to produce a photocopy of the 'Vault" version (Full and complete documetn) and sought DISCOVERY. That is, sought the documents in question. But, the DNC entered the fray and filed a motion to DENY DISCOVERY, which is a curious way to squelch rumors and claims of fraud. And, that is where the issue now stands.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 4:47:37 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 2118
Joined: 1/27/2007
Status: offline
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I know that it is difficult for you. But, we are not slandering him. We are simply asking to see documentation that he legitimately conforms to the requirements of the Constitution for a president. It's simple. He has to be over a certain age and he has to be a natural-born citizen of the United States of America.
To prove that one IS a natural-born citizen is easy. All Obama has to do is to produce a photocopy of what is known as the 'vault' version of his birth certificate. That is the one that was filed at the time of his birth by the attending physician. I cannot fathom why asking for that one simple document would be so difficult for anyone.
And, furthermore, I cannot understand how asking a presidential candidate to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he QUALIFIES under the Constitution to BE a president could be characterized as gossip. We are talking FACTS, not GOSSIP. He has not produced the documents that would clear this question up immediately. It is as simple as that.
Where does the burden of proof lie? It doesn't lie with any of us because we have no way of obtaining the documents due to privacy laws and WE aren't running for president. The burden of proof is on Obama to prove his eligibility. And, the burden for ensuring that he does so is with all of us that believe the Constitution means something. Produce the document and it all goes away. I could do it. You could do it. Why doesn't he do it?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Longfingers1
Wow... really? Why all the frivolous threads about this man, my goodness. If you have a problem with the polocies that he's actually proposed then start a thread to discuss it but going on about whether or not he's a citizen, if he's a terriorist, if he's palling around with terriorsts, and such that aren't based on hard facts, but are instead hearsay and gossip is crazy. There's various scriptures that denouce gossip, one that comes to mind is Psalms 20:19:
He who (S)goes about as a slanderer reveals secrets,
Therefore do not associate with (T)a gossip.
So is you aren't able to find real facts and evidence that come from a reputable source that can verify such claims or hearsay that you hear (this goes for any candidate and even beyond polotics, anyone), we should try to refrain from posting rumors. There's plenty of non Christian sites for them because this isn't Entertainment Tonight, The Insider or any other gossip forum... goodness...
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 5:04:03 PM
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Longfingers1
Posts: 444
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
I know that it is difficult for you. But, we are not slandering him. We are simply asking to see documentation that he legitimately conforms to the requirements of the Constitution for a president. It's simple. He has to be over a certain age and he has to be a natural-born citizen of the United States of America.
To prove that one IS a natural-born citizen is easy. All Obama has to do is to produce a photocopy of what is known as the 'vault' version of his birth certificate. That is the one that was filed at the time of his birth by the attending physician. I cannot fathom why asking for that one simple document would be so difficult for anyone.
And, furthermore, I cannot understand how asking a presidential candidate to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he QUALIFIES under the Constitution to BE a president could be characterized as gossip. We are talking FACTS, not GOSSIP. He has not produced the documents that would clear this question up immediately. It is as simple as that.
Where does the burden of proof lie? It doesn't lie with any of us because we have no way of obtaining the documents due to privacy laws and WE aren't running for president. The burden of proof is on Obama to prove his eligibility. And, the burden for ensuring that he does so is with all of us that believe the Constitution means something. Produce the document and it all goes away. I could do it. You could do it. Why doesn't he do it?
No, it's not difficult for me, matter of fact it's crystal clear to me. No one is making a huge deal about McCain's citizenship but instead it's all about Obama's in this forum. I've looked at all the threads since the election forum has been up and out of the one or two threads (which were about 1-3 pages long) about McCain's citizenship, there's numerous threads about Obama's, which are page and pages long... and it continues it to come up with some poster using gossip instead of real tangible facts to back their claim...all of this when it's already been settled he's a citizen. Both men have made it clear they are natural born citizens and anyone with common sense knows neither wouldn't be running for the highest office of the land if they didnt undergo some thorough investigation. So why does this keep coming up on this board time and time again is really beyond me... and TMeeks, yes, it's gossip and slander... there's no real facts to the numerous threads that come up about this so I'm calling it like it is., you can put lipstick on a pig, but guess what, it's still a pig.
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RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 5:06:59 PM
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adelphi_sky
Posts: 409
Joined: 10/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Longfingers1
Wow... really? Why all the frivolous threads about this man, my goodness. If you have a problem with the polocies that he's actually proposed then start a thread to discuss it but going on about whether or not he's a citizen, if he's a terriorist, if he's palling around with terriorsts, and such that aren't based on hard facts, but are instead hearsay and gossip is crazy. There's various scriptures that denouce gossip, one that comes to mind is Psalms 20:19:
He who (S)goes about as a slanderer reveals secrets,
Therefore do not associate with (T)a gossip.
So is you aren't able to find real facts and evidence that come from a reputable source that can verify such claims or hearsay that you hear (this goes for any candidate and even beyond polotics, anyone), we should try to refrain from posting rumors. There's plenty of non Christian sites for them because this isn't Entertainment Tonight, The Insider or any other gossip forum... goodness...
There is a conspiracy thread. I'm not sure why these have been allowed to fly in this forum.
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RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 5:08:45 PM
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Longfingers1
Posts: 444
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: adelphi_sky
quote:
ORIGINAL: Longfingers1
Wow... really? Why all the frivolous threads about this man, my goodness. If you have a problem with the polocies that he's actually proposed then start a thread to discuss it but going on about whether or not he's a citizen, if he's a terriorist, if he's palling around with terriorsts, and such that aren't based on hard facts, but are instead hearsay and gossip is crazy. There's various scriptures that denouce gossip, one that comes to mind is Psalms 20:19:
He who (S)goes about as a slanderer reveals secrets,
Therefore do not associate with (T)a gossip.
So is you aren't able to find real facts and evidence that come from a reputable source that can verify such claims or hearsay that you hear (this goes for any candidate and even beyond polotics, anyone), we should try to refrain from posting rumors. There's plenty of non Christian sites for them because this isn't Entertainment Tonight, The Insider or any other gossip forum... goodness...
There is a conspiracy thread. I'm not sure why these have been allowed to fly in this forum.
Me either... oh wait, probably because it's not about McCain and Palin...
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RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 5:09:19 PM
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bgwill3
Posts: 62
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
There are two forms of validation for most purposes when it comes to ascertaining and validating one's birth.
Okay. Are these two equally valid? Can I get a US passport, a driver's license with either one? Can I establish my identity with either one?
quote:
The best document is an exact photocopy of the original, doctor signed, Certificate of Live Birth. This generally looks like a reverse image for older documents since most are on microfilm. Obama cannot or refuses to product his document. It would tell us the name of the physician and the name of the hospital, etc.
However, these days, the easiest document for a state to issue is what is known as a "Certification of Birth" which is a computer printout with a state seal that includes just partial information from the original "Certificate of Live Birth". The document that Obama has produced is in this format.
The problem with the latter format is that it is easily counterfeited since no hand written signatures are on the computer generated copy. These documents are created fraudulently all over this country easch and every day for illegals. So, from a security standpoint a computer document isn't as good as a photocopy of the original that DOES have the physician's signature.
In short, I gather that you (personally) have not verified the veracity of the document that is Obama's alleged "certified copy." And, due to his reluctance to produce the other copy, you reject the certified copy because it may (or may not) be fraudulent, as far as you know.
Again, I am wondering whether you believe that Obama has established his identity (to get a driver's license and a US passport--he has these two documents without a doubt) with a phony/fraudulent birth record document.
If you are saying that his document is not your preferred choice as to establishing identity, that is one thing. If you are saying that his document is simply not a valid document for establishing identity, that is something else entirely, IMO.
Not that it matters much, but I was born in Cook County, Illinois, and the only document I have ever used to establish my birth is the certified copy similar to the document Obama has produced, and factcheck.org has verified. I've gotten a license and a US passport without a "certification of live birth" signed by a physician. Again, I am not running for president, so no one cares much.
This begs the questions that others have asked. Assuming the document is fake, the DNC was too mesmerized with Obama to verify the authenticity of his birth records. Clinton was too busy trying to ride into the nomination. McCain's campaign has other things to do than to vet the Democratic candidate. And the State Department is so bogged down in work that it hasn't been able to double check whether Obama was actually born in the US. Or the State Department is Bush's, so they can't, for whatever reason.
(I recall seeing in the news that someone checked on Obama's passport use, maybe I am remembering things wrongly. But I thought the State Department was all over that. Why would they turn a blind eye to a glaring issue that could actually disqualify Obama constitutionally?)
I suppose it is trite to mention, that if (a) Obama successfully presented this document (featured on factcheck.org) to acquire a state driver's license and a US passport from the State Dept.; and (b) you (and others) still have your doubts about whether the document is authentic (since you have not seen/touched/witnessed the document firsthand, to verify its authenticity); then (c) even if he were to produce whatever document you prefer (the "certification of live birth" with all those details and whatnot), you yourself would not see/touch/witness firsthand its authenticity either.
But I'm sure you saw that coming, based on the preceding paragraphs I typed in this message...
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‡ Brian ‡
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RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 5:20:07 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 2118
Joined: 1/27/2007
Status: offline
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Sorry. But, I am pretty good at internet searches and I cannot find a single referencn that claims, much less documents, that Obama's father was a naturalized U.S. citizen.
What I did find out is that he was a United Kingdom citizen for much of his life until Kenya's independence at which time he was automatically granted Kenyan citizenship. But, try as I might, I found not one shred of evidence that his father was ever a U.S. Citizen.
If you can find it, I will certainly take a look at it.
But, it may be that someone thought he was automatically a U.S. citizen because he married and American. Therefore, it changes the landscape with regards to how his birth fits into the Title 8 code.
It was OBAMA, himself, that might have had dual citizenship. Not his father.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Psalms274
quote:
I would also like to say that IF Obama's father wasn't a citizen (dual or otherwise) when Obama was born, I can't find where the above would apply to him IF he was born in Kenya.
From what I have found, he was a citizen. Dual citizenship means he was a citizen of Kenya and the USA at one point. If he was not a citizen, but a national, which is an immigrant who is here legally, the fourth one down on the list works. (Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national) The second to last one one the list also works. (Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time))
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Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 5:24:08 PM
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Longfingers1
Posts: 444
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
Sorry. But, I am pretty good at internet searches and I cannot find a single referencn that claims, much less documents, that Obama's father was a naturalized U.S. citizen.
If it's been proven that Obama himself is a citizen, and again for anyone running for the highest office in the land, their citizenship has been proven, why is this non-issue such an issue with you? What makes you think you need to physically search for verification of his citizenship, have done this with all prior candidates running for president?
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RE: Questioning Obama's citizenship Part II - 10/9/2008 5:35:18 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 2118
Joined: 1/27/2007
Status: offline
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Nice try.
But, if he was born in Hawaii as he claims then somewhere there is a document that was filled out on the | | |
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