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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/15/2008 7:05:53 AM
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buckifn
Posts: 1797
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quote:
This girl needs to be loved into the Kingdom. Her baby needs to be loved into the Kingdom. Where the baby shower is held is irrelevant. It's the spirit of compassion and holiness that will make the difference
Giving material things and throwing a party in the church do not necessarily convey God's love.
Sometimes love is conveyed by the word "No".....
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/15/2008 10:15:41 AM
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scottishmomma46
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yes i agree on that but................by doing the actions of showing love and doing this act of mercy is a good thing. and nothing was bought or sold and it was used a store? and as long as the love of Jesus was being shown again there is no harm done. and why is everyone not seeing this? the love of Jesus was and is being shown from these ladies, again when i was a unwed preg mom i also was taken by the love that was shown to me, even though i was not as young as this young lady again i saw the love of God thru the actions.
_____________________________
faith is just not something you talk about......faith is something you do.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/15/2008 11:01:23 AM
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ffbruce
Posts: 271
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quote:
ORIGINAL: buckifn
quote:
This girl needs to be loved into the Kingdom. Her baby needs to be loved into the Kingdom. Where the baby shower is held is irrelevant. It's the spirit of compassion and holiness that will make the difference
Giving material things and throwing a party in the church do not necessarily convey God's love.
Sometimes love is conveyed by the word "No".....
Personally, I don't see giving a shower as having much to do with material things. They could give her $100 and say, "Go get your own Pampers" and it wouldn't be the same.
As with most situations, there are right ways and wrong ways to handle this. There are both gracious and mean-spirited ways this can be handled. There could be a shower given without condoning the fact that she's a pregnant unwed teenager, and there are ways that she could be told, "Though we love you, we cannot give you this shower, and these are the reasons..."
My main concern, honestly, is that too many churches tend to err on the side of non-compassionate legalism.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/15/2008 12:15:32 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 617
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
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quote:
From your posts, there is nothing that this girl could ever do right in your eyes.
She could have repented and came to Christ
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It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/15/2008 1:37:16 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 617
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From: Near Seattle Washington
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quote:
Depends on one's definition of celebration. If hosting an event where the birth mother gets things needed for the baby (diapers, clothing, etc.), I don't know if that's necessarily a celebration in and of itself.
Have you been to a baby Shower? I have  . If playing games about babies and doing goofy things isn't a celebration then I don't know what it is
_____________________________
It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/15/2008 1:40:21 PM
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Mark328
Posts: 157
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
quote:
Depends on one's definition of celebration. If hosting an event where the birth mother gets things needed for the baby (diapers, clothing, etc.), I don't know if that's necessarily a celebration in and of itself.
Have you been to a baby Shower? I have . If playing games about babies and doing goofy things isn't a celebration then I don't know what it is
And would you see signs saying "Congratulations on your sin!" or "Happy Fornication"?
Hey, maybe I'm wrong here. Maybe Christianity isn't about helping others after all, it's about judging others. My mistake...
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/15/2008 1:44:14 PM
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Roberta_
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From: East Bay Area
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I haven't read where anyone is saying this young lady can't attend the church. They said she can't have the shower at the church.
If someone wanted to have a bridal shower or bachelor party at the church, complete with drunkenness and strippers, would we allow that?
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/15/2008 1:59:16 PM
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ffbruce
Posts: 271
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It would appear to me that we have two distinctly different views concerning what the church BUILDING is, and what it should be used for.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but...
One view sees the church building as the place where the saints gather to worship.
The other view sees the church building as a property to be used for ministry.
Is that - even though it is broad-brushed - accurate?
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/15/2008 2:03:24 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4210
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ffbruce
It would appear to me that we have two distinctly different views concerning what the church BUILDING is, and what it should be used for.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but...
One view sees the church building as the place where the saints gather to worship.
The other view sees the church building as a property to be used for ministry.
Is that - even though it is broad-brushed - accurate?
This is essentially correct, and in this thread, we never got enough information to determine what the policies of the OP's church are. Some churches will allow their facilities to be used by non-members and some won't. It isn't up to any of us to judge this particular church's rules of use.
What is at issue is whether the women in the church wanted to help meet the needs of a pregnant teenager or not and if not, why. We do know that the teen in question had been a long time attender, but had rejected the salvation message and repentance, even recently.
_____________________________
Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/15/2008 2:05:23 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4237
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ffbruce
One view sees the church building as the place where the saints gather to worship.
The other view sees the church building as a property to be used for ministry.
Is that - even though it is broad-brushed - accurate?
Pretty much...but one argument with the above definition will be that the gathering of the saints in worship is ministry.
But generally...yes as far as my understanding of this thread
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/15/2008 2:11:40 PM
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ffbruce
Posts: 271
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
quote:
ORIGINAL: ffbruce
It would appear to me that we have two distinctly different views concerning what the church BUILDING is, and what it should be used for.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but...
One view sees the church building as the place where the saints gather to worship.
The other view sees the church building as a property to be used for ministry.
Is that - even though it is broad-brushed - accurate?
This is essentially correct, and in this thread, we never got enough information to determine what the policies of the OP's church are. Some churches will allow their facilities to be used by non-members and some won't. It isn't up to any of us to judge this particular church's rules of use.
What is at issue is whether the women in the church wanted to help meet the needs of a pregnant teenager or not and if not, why. We do know that the teen in question had been a long time attender, but had rejected the salvation message and repentance, even recently.
That certainly sounds accurate.
I guess what disappoints me is that the women in the church basically refused to have a baby shower for the girl at all. Neither in the church building or somewhere else.
I can understand fully if there is a policy that the church building not be used for such things. While I don't agree with a policy like that, I understand that some churches have them, and I would abide by that.
I do think that the church, mentioned in the OP, missed out on an opportunity to love on and minister to this young lady. Apparently they felt that doing anything for this girl would be equal to condoning her sexual activity & pregnancy. I guess I don't see it that way.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/15/2008 2:15:33 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ffbruce
It would appear to me that we have two distinctly different views concerning what the church BUILDING is, and what it should be used for.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but...
One view sees the church building as the place where the saints gather to worship.
The other view sees the church building as a property to be used for ministry.
Is that - even though it is broad-brushed - accurate?
I respectfully disagree. I am sure both groups see the 'building' as a place for both. The difference, is that one group (which I am in) sees the church, while still a building, as an edifice that stands for what the people inside believe, God being Holy one of the most important standards.
It was suggested, many times I might add, that the young lady have her shower in a home. This was a small congregation - 50 or so people - and the OP was the one who explained her unrepentant situation.....no one has accused her of wanting only gifts or any such thing. THAT, is all supposition and a good example of why Christians should not give place to such things.
I like a "hot' topic thread as much as the next person. I don't like misinformation and people getting all excited over what they think rather than what is true. Opinions are fine, but not when they take the place of facts which have been well presented and are here for all to read.
< Message edited by solarflare -- 10/15/2008 6:04:02 PM >
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/15/2008 2:16:49 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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quote:
I guess what disappoints me is that the women in the church basically refused to have a baby shower for the girl at all. Neither in the church building or somewhere else.
We don't know that for a fact. Apparently, the girl took herself off to another church. We don't know if a shower was refused, or if no one stepped up (in time) or the girl up and left.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/15/2008 2:20:08 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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quote:
I can understand fully if there is a policy that the church building not be used for such things. While I don't agree with a policy like that, I understand that some churches have them, and I would abide by that.
I do think that the church, mentioned in the OP, missed out on an opportunity to love on and minister to this young lady. Apparently they felt that doing anything for this girl would be equal to condoning her sexual activity & pregnancy. I guess I don't see it that way.
I respect the way you have voiced your belief and the fact that you would abide by the way a given church understands and tries to obey scripture.
I really have no problem with that. It's the people getting all mad at other Christians they disagree with and thinking they are all righteous in their anger that I am disappointed in. 
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/15/2008 2:26:45 PM
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ffbruce
Posts: 271
Joined: 10/14/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
I guess what disappoints me is that the women in the church basically refused to have a baby shower for the girl at all. Neither in the church building or somewhere else.
We don't know that for a fact. Apparently, the girl took herself off to another church. We don't know if a shower was refused, or if no one stepped up (in time) or the girl up and left.
Well... I understood the OP to say that the girl EVENTUALLY went to another church.
From the few bits of information shared, my opinion is that the ladies of the church in the OP missed an opportunity to minister to this girl. (Ministering to her and caring for her are not the same as condoning her sin.) Unfortunately, I'd guess that they'll probably never have another opportunity to minister to her and try to lead her to the Lord. I don't view that as success.
But again, I do understand that we're all forming OPINIONS based on rather incomplete information.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/15/2008 2:37:14 PM
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ffbruce
Posts: 271
Joined: 10/14/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
I can understand fully if there is a policy that the church building not be used for such things. While I don't agree with a policy like that, I understand that some churches have them, and I would abide by that.
I do think that the church, mentioned in the OP, missed out on an opportunity to love on and minister to this young lady. Apparently they felt that doing anything for this girl would be equal to condoning her sexual activity & pregnancy. I guess I don't see it that way.
I respect the way you have voiced your belief and the fact that you would abide by the way a given church understands and tries to obey scripture.
I really have no problem with that. It's the people getting all mad at other Christians they disagree with and thinking they are all righteous in their anger that I am disappointed in.
Fair enough.
My opinion in this matter is based partly on the fact that, for nearly 20 years, I pastored a church where they had all kinds of rules - especially regarding their property. It was a VERY difficult place to be, because it was clear that they cared more about their building than about people. I remember, at one point, it took about 6 months' worth of contentious board meetings to hammer out a non-member building rental contract. They even went so far as to write up a policy stating that people could not sit on the backs of pews, or wear hats in church - because it was disrespectful. Nobody would SAY they cared more about the building than the people, but it was obvious.
Meanwhile, more and more and more and more people - especially young people - just left that church.
I am SO happy to now be at a church where the people want to take good care of the property, but seems to understand that it is to be used for ministry - a congregation where people are more important than buildings.
I'll stop editorializing now. 
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/15/2008 5:17:03 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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quote:
From the OP
quote:
She wanted to have her baby shower at the church.
Some of the women said no way! They were so disapointed in
Ooops. Missed that one. Well, I don't know how disappointed you can be in someone who is not saved.......
Thanks for pointing that out. I really didn't see it Memaw. 
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/15/2008 5:46:32 PM
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rafterman
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Something came to mind I wonder to see if we could apply it in this case.
Matthew 12:3-8 " He said to them, "Haven't you read what David did when he and those who were with him were hungry— how he entered the house of God, and they ate the sacred bread, which is not lawful for him or for those with him to eat, but only for the priests? Or haven't you read in the Law that on Sabbath days the priests in the temple violate the Sabbath and are innocent? But I tell you that something greater than the temple is here! If you had known what this means: I desire mercy and not sacrifice , you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/15/2008 6:00:43 PM
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Memaw.
Posts: 2478
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Sunflower State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
From the OP
quote:
She wanted to have her baby shower at the church.
Some of the women said no way! They were so disapointed in
Ooops. Missed that one. Well, I don't know how disappointed you can be in someone who is not saved.......
Thanks for pointing that out. I really didn't see it Memaw.
It's ok.
See, that's my "bone" I'm picking on here.
The young girl was welcome in the church youth group, I don't know about other youth groups at other churches, but the ones I've been involved with have a lot to do with the other members...they know each other, worship together..etc.
I don't understand how they can "allow" (my wording here  ) her to be part of the youth group, maybe go on outings with the group, possibly be part of a "youth service"...etc, then when she asks for a baby shower all of a sudden they are "disappointed" in her.
Where were these ladies when this young woman was with the guy who impregnated her? I'm not saying it's their fault she ended up pregnant at all, what I am saying is the "ministry" of this church failed this young girl and it didn't start with the turning down of the baby shower, it happened wayyy beforehand.
Roberta,
quote:
If someone wanted to have a bridal shower or bachelor party at the church, complete with drunkenness and strippers, would we allow that?
You know I love you!! 
BUT
She wasn't asking for strippers and drunks.
Would a bachelor or bridal shower be allowed in the church IF it's known the ones honored had premarital relationships?
(whether with the one they are marrying or someone else)
_____________________________
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.
Every generation has to learn how to protect and defend it, or it's gone
and gone for a long, long time."
Ronald Reagan
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/15/2008 6:18:16 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
Status: offline
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OK...I think...  ...this will be my last post on this thread. Pleez don't make me come back
No prob her going to the youth group...I mean that's part of extending Christianity, right? Perhaps they (the women, THE WOMEN) were disappointed she wasn't saved (now here I go playing the guessing game)
and said No. My point, my very own personal point, is that I don't have a problem with the shower per se....I do have one with it being given in the church. Why? It does not give the young lady pause to understand that what she did was wrong....the baby is innocent, but will still bear the consequences....no father, teenage mother...not so good......Churches are used for Bingo, movies, who knows what all. Let's keep church, church.
Respect for what it is representing, not disrespect for people, but a standard of something more than what we go through every day. Smile!
A home would have been appropriate. Sorry none was extended. We don't know all the facts...maybe she was a snot....maybe the women were
'religious'...I don't know....maybe she was lovely and the women were snots.....  Ok, whatever...it was not an immaculate conception and sorry, it's NOT OK to be pregnant and unmarried. Never was. I don't have stones in my hand, I am not without sin, but that is what I think and believe. Could go on, but enough is enough.
It has been a pleasure
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/15/2008 6:44:22 PM
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ffbruce
Posts: 271
Joined: 10/14/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
My point, my very own personal point, is that I don't have a problem with the shower per se....I do have one with it being given in the church. Why? It does not give the young lady pause to understand that what she did was wrong....the baby is innocent, but will still bear the consequences....no father, teenage mother...not so good......Churches are used for Bingo, movies, who knows what all. Let's keep church, church.
I honestly have no problem with that line of thought, though I do not agree with it 100%.
It sounds to me like your wish would have been to extend Christian love and compassion to the girl, yet simply not have the baby shower at the church. Have it somewhere else.
That's cool. Thanks!
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/15/2008 6:51:00 PM
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myka
Posts: 797
Status: offline
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quote:
It does not give the young lady pause to understand that what she did was wrong....the baby is innocent, but will still bear the consequences....no father, teenage mother...not so good......
Most teenage mothers already know this...
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/15/2008 9:24:31 PM
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buckifn
Posts: 1797
Joined: 5/23/2006
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quote:
what I am saying is the "ministry" of this church failed this young girl and it didn't start with the turning down of the baby shower, it happened wayyy beforehand.
Are you blaming the women at church because this girl decided to have sex outside of marriage and one of the results is she became pregnant?
That's what your post sounds like....what can someone do bar the door and throw away the key?
It sounds to me like this girl attended youth group there so had ample opportunity to allow Jesus to control her life, but chose to follow flesh instead of the Spirit. and it also sounds like she wanted the church group to say "poor baby" here let us cater to what you want now even if it isn't Christ.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/15/2008 10:46:26 PM
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scottishmomma46
Posts: 178
Joined: 4/7/2006
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oh my goodness, let's really be more uncaring? you know maybe they did not have another place to hold the shower?
nothing was being sold as far as i know, things were being given to a unwed teen mom and we will never know the whole story and the whole story, and her true heart.
so this subject needs to stop and we need to support other unwed teens that to let them know that if they chose to bring a life into this world, they need to know that they are supported. yes they got preg out of marriage, but..........if you have no sin could you cast the first stone?
none of us is sinnless, and perfect and none of us can say that we have no sin to "throw" the first stone.
so this needs to stop.
_____________________________
faith is just not something you talk about......faith is something you do.
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