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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/13/2008 2:21:15 PM
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yustme
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quote:
ORIGINAL: techne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
I understood the OP's heart, so I refrained from my own nit-piking.
well, lapidoth, the salient points of the first 4 posts were as follows:
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
Does anyone remember the way church used to be in the 50's and before?
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ORIGINAL: yustme
The church I'm in,the Pastor's fantastick but it is full of fleshly emotions and not Spiritual emotions.It's been so long since I have felt the presents of the HS of God,I need a Spiritual bath.Yes I read my Bible and pray,but oh how I need to be able to leave my church feeling like I have been In the presents of the HS of God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
I agree,however,my husband Is just as fed up as I am,but we don't know where to go.We have visited,but they all seem to be the same.
tafkam,that wasn't a blanket statement.Sorry It sounded that way to you.I do know churches who are the way I remember church to be,however we can't travel for three hr's every Sunday & Wednesday for church.
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
Tafkam,this Is the nicest post you have ever posted to me.Thank you so much.I don't Insist on staying where I'm at,I just don't have a choice.Every Sunday and Wednesday I come from church asking God to either come back and take us home to Heaven or please take me home soon.I don't want to live like this anymore going to church and just going through the motions and playing church.I want to see people so under conviction they run to the alter for what ever need.I want to see people not be able to leave the church untill they get right with God and with each other.This Is what I mean about the way church use to be.
basically, if i'm reading these staements correctly, yustme thinks her church is too fleshly and not spiritual enough, as well as implying that much of today's church is the same (as her church). besides, the church in the 50s and before is a pretty big time span, don'cha think? does she mean the church of the past 1,950 years?  or only the past 100? remember, "the great awakenings" are further back than that now, let alone any number of other previous revivals/ moves of G-d.
yes, she wants to see people "run to the alter" and be so convicted they can't leave until they make things right between them and G-d. fine. and those are good things. but she is basing things on appearances, somewhat. she says she needs "to be able to leave my church feeling like I have been In the presents of the HS of God" and that she doesn't "want to live like this anymore going to church and just going through the motions and playing church". that sounds more like it's her issue, and her conviction and struggle with G-d. she vacillates back and forth between statements of her longing and what others should be doing.it isn't simply "pushing theological buttons".
i don't doubt yustme's passion. i don't doubt she loves G-d, jesus, the holy spirit and yes, even the church. but i also think it's obvious that her struggle and process is on display here, and that it just might be colouring how she expresses these things. and that reveals numerous things. then again, i'm either pretty critical and judgemental or discerning (depending on how you read me and my "heart") so i'm probably reading some of those things in... 
then again, i was simply positing a question to something that was being presented as quite cut and dried - namely, church today isn't the same as it was in the 50s. true. but the reasons for that difference were based on inidividual (and subjective) experience and judgements based on what could be physically observed. besides, that has probably been a constant refrain over the past 2000 years. of course, she can speak of her experience all she wants, and it's certainly valid. but the church has always been composed of sheep and goats, tares and wheat, spiritual disciples and carnal christians. why would that ever change? it's part of what helps us grow in grace. 
and thank you for yours.
I do want to comment on your post.What you stated about me and my experiences.You're so far off it's pathetic.What I yearn for has nothing to do with me at all,but everything to do withe the way the HS USED to work.Yes He still today,but the way He used to.If He didn't work to day,there would never be anyone saved ever.But you don't see salvations today like there was 40,50 yr's ago.I know,I was born In 44.I takes an awful lot to win someone to Christ today.Oh It can be done,and Is being done,but not like It was In the 50's and before.I know,I lived It.
As far as people running to the alter.Yes,I saw that.And you know why I'd like to see that again?Bacause people could hardly wait to get from their seats to the alter.As a matter of fact.I have seen people run to the alter during the preaching so the conviction was so strong an they couldn't wait for the alter call.I have seen services where people were convicted of having hard feelings and wouldn't leave the church untill they made things right with other people.
This Is how the HS works If we would just get out of His way and let Him.
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/14/2008 9:05:16 AM
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yustme
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Restored_Heart
I was thinking..... Has the HS changed? Or have we? (it is like the old story about the married couple in the pickup truck.... the wife complained that they didn't sit up close next to each other like they did when they were first married.... the husband - who was driving, looked over and asked, "Who moved?" )
What are God's requirements for the movement and action of the Holy Spirit?
Is it possible that some may be experiencing legitimate worship - while others in the same building may not? If so, what is the difference?
Is it a failure of the Holy Spirit.... or in us?
God the Son ,God the Father,God the HS never changes.Never has ,never will.But many people have.For some reason we think we have to keep up with the times,blend with the culture.I don't agree with that completely.The Bible says we are to be in the world,not of the world.In other words we have to live here,but were not to look,act,talk,dress,partisapate In the things of the world.We have stoped the HS from working like He used to.
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/14/2008 9:12:50 AM
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yustme
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I've got a question.Why aren't the preacher's of today teaching on the work of the HS of God?
PREACHERS......Those of you who aren't,why not?
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/14/2008 9:38:43 AM
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tafkam
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quote:
The Bible says we are to be in the world,not of the world.In other words we have to live here,but were not to look,act,talk,dress,partisapate In the things of the world.
Yustme,
I think you are bending this verse way out of context. Yes, we live here, but our heart is fixed on heaven and our eternal destiny. We're talking more of a state of the heart than some legalistic rigidity on dress or musical style or whatever the current argument may be...
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/14/2008 10:51:26 AM
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yustme
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
quote:
The Bible says we are to be in the world,not of the world.In other words we have to live here,but were not to look,act,talk,dress,partisapate In the things of the world.
Yustme,
I think you are bending this verse way out of context. Yes, we live here, but our heart is fixed on heaven and our eternal destiny. We're talking more of a state of the heart than some legalistic rigidity on dress or musical style or whatever the current argument may be...
Well If I am bending It out of context,so Is a LOT of preachers.
Btw,this thread Is not about "music",but about anything that quenches the HS of God.And believe me,there are many things that does quench the HS of God.
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/14/2008 12:04:31 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2744
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From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
But you don't see salvations today like there was 40,50 yr's ago.I know,I was born In 44.I takes an awful lot to win someone to Christ today.
And how lasting were these "salvations"? If they were as authentic as you say, there should be some ongoing fruit from these decisions. Or, were they as descisions at a Billy Graham crusade: one heavy on emotions but as solid and filling as cotton candy? Any "work" done to "win" someone to Christ is a effort of the flesh rather than a move of the HS.
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/14/2008 1:33:00 PM
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yustme
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
But you don't see salvations today like there was 40,50 yr's ago.I know,I was born In 44.I takes an awful lot to win someone to Christ today.
And how lasting were these "salvations"? If they were as authentic as you say, there should be some ongoing fruit from these decisions. Or, were they as descisions at a Billy Graham crusade: one heavy on emotions but as solid and filling as cotton candy? Any "work" done to "win" someone to Christ is a effort of the flesh rather than a move of the HS.
Some,very lasting.I've seen preacher's,teachers,missionaries,preachers wives,etc,etc come from some of them.My dad Is an example of this.Before God took him home,he spent 60 yr's In the ministry.Of course some backslid on God.But for those who didn't,many lives have been changed.
About Billy Graham,don't be so quick to critisize him.Even If one person comes to Christ,It's worth It all.Is It just "high emotion"at his services or Is the HS speaking to the heart's?
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/14/2008 2:05:34 PM
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Restored_Heart
Posts: 898
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quote:
Is it possible that some may be experiencing legitimate worship - while others in the same building may not? If so, what is the difference?
Is it possible for others to be able to experience the movement of the HS in a situation where you are not?
If so, what is hindering you?
Not accusations, just thoughts....
_____________________________
"Ya mom, I got to see "Some Italian guy" in concert..."
Some Italian guy? (Carman) :p
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/14/2008 4:45:39 PM
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yustme
Posts: 386
Joined: 5/2/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Restored_Heart
quote:
Is it possible that some may be experiencing legitimate worship - while others in the same building may not? If so, what is the difference?
Is it possible for others to be able to experience the movement of the HS in a situation where you are not?
If so, what is hindering you?
Not accusations, just thoughts....
Is this question directed at me?If It Is,I'm sorry but I don't understand It.I'm awful tired tonight.so maybe my brain just Isn't funtioning right.
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/14/2008 4:56:37 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1821
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I think we are in a culture (and this includes the church culture) of not accepting authority. Those in the church say they believe God, trust God, see Him as the authority. . . but where is the personal conviction over sin and true repentance?
You start talking about me, my sin, messing with my family. . . and you'd better watch out. Right?
There is much defense. But little repentance.
There is much talk of God. But little evidence of His moving and working in the midst of the people.
We have the form. But not the power.
It is not about emotions. It is about true repentance, conviction, that comes about through the working of the Holy Spirit.
We know too much. We love ourselves too much. Thinking ourselves wise. . .
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/14/2008 6:48:31 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2744
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From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
About Billy Graham,don't be so quick to critisize him.Even If one person comes to Christ,It's worth It all.Is It just "high emotion"at his services or Is the HS speaking to the heart's?
Statisticly (BG's own) speaking those who come forward at a crusade event, less than five pecent are still in the church five years after the event. One must be aware mere emotion does not indicate a move of the HS. Witness the madness such as slain-in-the-spirit, laughing revival, barking revival, etc. to prove my point.
< Message edited by colliefan -- 10/14/2008 7:28:08 PM >
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/14/2008 7:05:25 PM
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Restored_Heart
Posts: 898
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
quote:
ORIGINAL: Restored_Heart
quote:
Is it possible that some may be experiencing legitimate worship - while others in the same building may not? If so, what is the difference?
Is it possible for others to be able to experience the movement of the HS in a situation where you are not?
If so, what is hindering you?
Not accusations, just thoughts....
Is this question directed at me?If It Is,I'm sorry but I don't understand It.I'm awful tired tonight.so maybe my brain just Isn't funtioning right.
Question is directed at any that care to answer....
I guess the root of it is.... are there situations where some can feel the movement (worship) of the Holy Spirit while others in the same location cannot?
If so, what is the difference between the two types of people? Why is one feeling the movement of the spirit, while the other is missing it?
Are there scriptures to illustrate?
_____________________________
"Ya mom, I got to see "Some Italian guy" in concert..."
Some Italian guy? (Carman) :p
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/14/2008 10:26:27 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3569
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One of the things I wanted desperately to walk away from in my old church was the emotionalism and the concentration on "experiences." I was just so worn out by it all -- more like disgusted that I had fallen prey to it.
So going straight from that church to my present place of worship, I thought I was going to just learn, and to stifle all the emotional junk. That worked for quite awhile, until I figured out that I was trying to push G-d into a very uncomfortable box that could not hold Him. How much better it would be, I learned, if I quit trying to recreate G-d into my ideal idol and stepped out of the way, knowing He is G-d.
I took back some of my requests I had made to Him, and the best spiritual growth, the best biblical learning, began to take place. No, not a bunch of emotionalism. Not at all. Just good progress in Him that yields fruit. Now, I just need to grow into what He is teaching me.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/15/2008 9:05:18 AM
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yustme
Posts: 386
Joined: 5/2/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
About Billy Graham,don't be so quick to critisize him.Even If one person comes to Christ,It's worth It all.Is It just "high emotion"at his services or Is the HS speaking to the heart's?
Statisticly (BG's own) speaking those who come forward at a crusade event, less than five pecent are still in the church five years after the event. One must be aware mere emotion does not indicate a move of the HS. Witness the madness such as slain-in-the-spirit, laughing revival, barking revival, etc. to prove my point.
Oh how I agree with you!
Slain In the Spirit,barking revival,etc.This Is NOT,NOT the work of the HS of God.And If Is what you think I believe is the work of the HS,my dear you have no idea how He works.The above things are not of God.Please know that.Satan has a conterfiet for everything God does.
Now as far as the BG meetings I don't care if even just one follows through with Christ,the meetings are worth it
Let's try to put emotions aside and clear out of this equasion.When the HS of God moves upon a person a complete peace,an excileration of humbleness,peace,unexplainable joy,a oneness with the HS comes over you.You feel so undeserving of His attention,love,compassion.Yet you feel within your chest you like you're going to burst with love and gratitude because of His love.
What I fear is this,that people are not being taught the beauty of how He works.
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/15/2008 9:09:58 AM
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yustme
Posts: 386
Joined: 5/2/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
One of the things I wanted desperately to walk away from in my old church was the emotionalism and the concentration on "experiences." I was just so worn out by it all -- more like disgusted that I had fallen prey to it.
So going straight from that church to my present place of worship, I thought I was going to just learn, and to stifle all the emotional junk. That worked for quite awhile, until I figured out that I was trying to push G-d into a very uncomfortable box that could not hold Him. How much better it would be, I learned, if I quit trying to recreate G-d into my ideal idol and stepped out of the way, knowing He is G-d.
I took back some of my requests I had made to Him, and the best spiritual growth, the best biblical learning, began to take place. No, not a bunch of emotionalism. Not at all. Just good progress in Him that yields fruit. Now, I just need to grow into what He is teaching me.
GOOD POST!
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/15/2008 10:06:59 AM
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tafkam
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Yustme,
I'd still like to see some Scripture that tells us, beyond all doubt, that our worship experieinces, or interaction with the holy spirit should be completely devoid of all emtion.
I can only speak for myself when I say that time spent with God is a very emotional experience. I cannot imagine wanting and desiring to express love for someone, out fo a pure heart and pure motivations, and being told it was wrong to do so..
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/15/2008 12:30:31 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3557
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From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
I think we are in a culture (and this includes the church culture) of not accepting authority. Those in the church say they believe God, trust God, see Him as the authority. . . but where is the personal conviction over sin and true repentance?
This is so true.
A word study of the verse that says,
"the love of many will wax cold"
will reveal; love = agape.
So the "love of God" or "God kind of love" waxes cold.
We have the brotherly love, the lust emotions rampant,
but the agape love is growing cold. Or, has grown cold.
We can deny it, but the scriptures bear it out.
We can only "work out our own salvation."
So, we do have to be sure that we take responsibility for
our own souls and be prepared and ready for the opportunity
to be a witness, and for the Day of Judgment.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/15/2008 4:21:50 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2744
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From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
You feel so undeserving of His attention,love,compassion.
Feelings have nothing to do with us being underserving. The FACT is we are undeserving. One can feel deserving of His love and be flat-out wrong. The key is to get facts to align with feelings.
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/15/2008 4:27:17 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2744
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From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
Now as far as the BG meetings I don't care if even just one follows through with Christ,the meetings are worth it
What if the money and man-hours needs to "pull-off" a BG crusade were diverted into developing redemptive relationships; wouldn't there be more authentic conversions? Wouldn't the one indivual you speak off been introduced to Christ through another means? Again, you are worshiping feelings/programs.
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/15/2008 7:37:07 PM
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Elena1030
Posts: 516
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From: Music City, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Restored_Heart
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
quote:
ORIGINAL: Restored_Heart
quote:
Is it possible that some may be experiencing legitimate worship - while others in the same building may not? If so, what is the difference?
Is it possible for others to be able to experience the movement of the HS in a situation where you are not?
If so, what is hindering you?
Not accusations, just thoughts....
Is this question directed at me?If It Is,I'm sorry but I don't understand It.I'm awful tired tonight.so maybe my brain just Isn't funtioning right.
Question is directed at any that care to answer....
I guess the root of it is.... are there situations where some can feel the movement (worship) of the Holy Spirit while others in the same location cannot?
If so, what is the difference between the two types of people? Why is one feeling the movement of the spirit, while the other is missing it?
Are there scriptures to illustrate?
Can't think of the applicable Scriptures at the moment... but I think it's not merely what happens in the moment, but also after. What was the response God was leading the person to?
For example, some Sundays, the response of one person to the Holy Spirit's moving might be to walk down the aisle and accept Christ. Another person's might be to walk down the aisle, go to the altar, and pray. Another might respond to God's leading by going to be by the side of someone at the altar who is praying or praying and crying.
One Sunday night my response to the Holy Spirit was my accepting Christ. Another time my response was "surrendering" to His call to go on a mission trip. (I did.) Another time was affirming my new church home. One time was conviction that I should reconcile with another believer to whom I was not speaking (and whom I was avoiding).
Each response had a corresponding action (or even a set of actions).
Perhaps yustme is talking about people openly confessing sin and expressing repentance, getting up out of their seats/pews and going over to someone to ask forgiveness and seek reconciliation and restoration of the relationship, praying together as a congregation and interceding --- more spontaneous expressions of responding to the Holy Spirit.
Sometimes the obedient response is to do something right in the middle of the worship service. Other times the obedient response is more about what a believer is doing each day (a habit that needs to go, a habit that needs to be replaced, a habit that needs to start, or a habit that needs to be reinforced --- for example).
For me, what helps is to hear people testify about how God responds to their obedience --- illustrations of walking out salvation ---> understanding better what sanctification looks like... a beautiful tapestry of all sorts of God's works within His Church.
Make sense?
_____________________________
"We're not odd, we're just over-expressive."—Helen in Howard's End
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/15/2008 9:18:51 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2744
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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Remember the "worship" service is just a small portion of the week. What is more important, that small portion of the week, or the remaining segment.
What is more important emotionalism exhibited during that time? Or, evidence of changed lives.
As a part of my ministry at my church I lead a team that goes into the main womens prison in NC to minister to women just entering the system. Tears are aplently during these times and women testifying to a "changed" life: a great deal of emotions.
The problem is a great deal (3 out of 4) of these women will be back in prison several years later on other charges because they have not dealt with the heart wounds that led them to prison. I refuse to do an "altar call" at our studies because it is far too easy to manipulate them into a false conversion. The "Free On The Inside" bible we give each woman clearly outlines the plan of salvation, the cost of discipleship, and the healing that comes from being "Free On The Inside." Our overarching goal is to help them change from victims into victors in Christ.
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/16/2008 12:22:01 AM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1821
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quote:
Remember the "worship" service is just a small portion of the week. What is more important, that small portion of the week, or the remaining segment.
What is more important emotionalism exhibited during that time? Or, evidence of changed lives.
As a part of my ministry at my church I lead a team that goes into the main womens prison in NC to minister to women just entering the system. Tears are aplently during these times and women testifying to a "changed" life: a great deal of emotions.
The problem is a great deal (3 out of 4) of these women will be back in prison several years later on other charges because they have not dealt with the heart wounds that led them to prison. I refuse to do an "altar call" at our studies because it is far too easy to manipulate them into a false conversion. The "Free On The Inside" bible we give each woman clearly outlines the plan of salvation, the cost of discipleship, and the healing that comes from being "Free On The Inside." Our overarching goal is to help them change from victims into victors in Christ.
The need you have shared, colliefan, is really what yustme is remembering. . . hearts that are responsive to the Holy Spirit. That's what is needed in the prison. That is what is needed in our churches. As Lapidoth quoted above, our hearts have grown cold. And the evidence is all around us. We need to spend more time on our knees.
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/16/2008 1:25:18 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2744
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
We need to spend more time on our knees.
Yes, we need to spend time on our knees. But God does not us to spend all of our time in that position, We need to be involved in bringing God's healing to wounded hearts. It is so hard to get people involved in prison ministry. Most would rather go to a bible study at church than help lead a bible study in prison.
And there is a church in prison: it's called the Church on The Inside! Most of the women that come to our bible studies have had some sort of "salvation experience" in their lives. The problem is that experience has not lead to a solid Christian walk,
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/16/2008 3:25:07 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1821
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quote:
Yes, we need to spend time on our knees. But God does not us to spend all of our time in that position, We need to be involved in bringing God's healing to wounded hearts. It is so hard to get people involved in prison ministry. Most would rather go to a bible study at church than help lead a bible study in prison.
And there is a church in prison: it's called the Church on The Inside! Most of the women that come to our bible studies have had some sort of "salvation experience" in their lives. The problem is that experience has not lead to a solid Christian walk,
I'm in total agreement again, colliefan. But most outside the prison who claim a salvation experience are not walking with the Lord either. It is the problem both inside and outside the prison. We want the fluff of relationship but not the stuff of relationship that gets down to the nitty gritty of life, KWIM? So like the pharisees of old, we play the children's games and do our church thing but it is all empty.
For the past two years I have had a relationship with someone in prison through letters. I know it is not much but I wanted to encourage this individual in their relationship with Jesus and pray that the walk continues now that they are on the outside. Bless you for your heart for others.
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