RE: Do we need to repent of our sin(s) first before we can be saved?
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Do we need to repent of our sin(s) first before we can be saved?
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Total Votes : 34
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(last vote on : 11/16/2008 12:26:23 PM)
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RE: Do we need to repent of our sin(s) first before we ... - 10/13/2008 4:02:35 PM
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jbow
Posts: 797
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From: Dixie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Repent of what? How does the sinner understand sin to enable repentance before the Holy Spirit indwells him? God tells us;
1Co 2:14 But people who aren't spiritual can't receive these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means.
Romans 10:9 still says it all " If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved".
Salvation is by faith and faith only.
Bob
James says in chapter 2...
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
It is easy to quote scripture but you need to look at the whole picture. Faith alone is dead. Repentance is required. James say's that we are justified by works.
Simply believing is not enough, one must also "do the word", one must have works.
Unless of course James did not know what he was talking about.... but he seem's pretty clear to me. Faith without works is not saving faith.
J
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Do we need to repent of our sin(s) first before we ... - 10/13/2008 7:36:59 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1884
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Sorry jbow but our works have nothing to do with our salvation but goods works are a sign of our salvation.
Abraham's willingness to offer Isaac was only a sign that he trusted in God...that God would make the situation right. Notice that Abraham full expected to bring Isaac back with him, when he said;
And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. Gen 22:5
And when he told Isaac that God would provide the lamb for the offering.
The bible is very clear that salvation is of faith...not works.
Ephesians 2:8-10: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."
Romans 4:4-5: "Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness."
Titus 3:5: "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. . . . "
Galatians 3:21-22: "For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Do we need to repent of our sin(s) first before we ... - 10/13/2008 7:52:46 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1616
Joined: 1/29/2007
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quote:
Faith without works is not saving faith.
Granted, but it's still the faith that saves us - not the works. Works are a sign of the salvation we have, not the cause of it.
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You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Do we need to repent of our sin(s) first before we ... - 10/13/2008 8:12:25 PM
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jbow
Posts: 797
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From: Dixie
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quote:
Sorry jbow but our works have nothing to do with our salvation but goods works are a sign of our salvation.
I know we are saved by faith and through the completed work of Christ but there is still James who say's that we are justified by works.
How do you define justification?
Not to change the discusion please but, for example, the Bible teaches both election and freewill as far as I can see. I accept both, I cannot reconcile them but neither can I dismiss them. So too I have to accept both faith and works unless I am to cut the book of James out of the Bible.
I know that no man can be justified by the keeping of the law but neither of James' examples are "keeping of the law". They are works though.
Julien
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Do we need to repent of our sin(s) first before we ... - 10/13/2008 8:13:10 PM
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abu_khomar
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Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost.
It seems obvious that repentance had to happen first here before the Spirit was to come.
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RE: Do we need to repent of our sin(s) first before we ... - 10/13/2008 10:23:23 PM
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URForgiven
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Just for clarity...
Ephesians 2:8
"For it is by Grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"
Peace
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"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Do we need to repent of our sin(s) first before we ... - 10/14/2008 12:08:43 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1884
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From: Kansas
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Hi jbow...
I think the intent of Jame's statement regarding works is that it is impossible to have saving faith without works being apparent.
One cannot be reborn in Christ, indwell by the Holy Spirit and not have good works in his life. One cannot continue to sin and belong to God.
If ye fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well: Jas 2:8
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. Jas 2:18
The statement by James has confused many people...myself included.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Do we need to repent of our sin(s) first before we ... - 10/14/2008 12:48:30 PM
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jbow
Posts: 797
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From: Dixie
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quote:
The statement by James has confused many people...myself included.
Was this indeed a statement by James that is confusing or is scripture the Word of God? If it is the word of God we cannot interpret it to get it to fit with our beliefs. There are things in scripture that I cannot reconcile and in those cases I accept both. It is the only thing I can do that does not diminish one point or the other.
Therein lies the problem... Iknow that you do not believe that the Holy Spirit was not clear to His intent. Did James write it down wrong? Was there a translation problem?... or did the Holy Spirit say exactly what He meant to say?
He says quite clearly that Abraham was justified by works. To be clear, not works of the law, but works of faith, but works nontheless. Faith without works is dead and dead things are of no profit. I think this ties in with what Jesus said about many coming to Him saying that they did many wonderful works in His name and He will tell them to depart, He never knew them. Surely they were professing people who had asked the Lord to save them... preachers it would seem to imply. It would also imply that thier works were not of faith, but rather were their own works.
Then there is Rahab, whose faith is spoken of and whose work was to tell a lie to her people about the spies... so works are not tied to the law but to faith. There are others who lied and were approved because of the lie, the Egyptian midwives for example.
Back to the OP... I think that repentance is required but one must be born again first. The dead cannot repent and until we are born again we are the enemy of God and have no inclination to repentance. We may have a desire to not go to hell if we hear of it but without God regenerating us we cannot truly repent, we have not the capacity for it while we are dead in sin. We need also to define repentance. When I say repentance I do not mean simply deciding to stop some sinful or evil behavior. I do not mean deciding to "do good". Buddhists can and do decide to live an austere life of giving and doing not harm to others, as they perceive good and harm. They are neither regenerate nor are their works good.
True repentance happens when God calls a person and regenerates them. True repentance is walking in the Spirit, which again can only be done by one who has been born again. It is walking in obedience and in faith, which can only be done after one is born again.
So we are saved first then we must repent. I also believe that repentance is a gift from God to us. We are so far removed from God in this life that He must give us all things pertaining to life and righteousness. We know very little of God in this life. We "see in a glass darkly" not a telescope but a darkened image and that only of God's back parts as He showed to Moses. Yes the Father has been declared to us by Jesus and if we have seen Him we have seen the Father but stil in a very limited way... only in the things pertaining to salvation and the things that we need to live a life by faith in this world. Otherwise, it would not be a life of faith. There is a reason He is called the invisible God, we know very little of Him compared to all there is to know.
God and His glory is so far removed from us that knowledge of His glory and true being and wonder have never even entered into our minds. Now we see darkly as a shadow of His hind parts but when we die and lose this sinful flesh we shall see Hi face to face and know as we are known...
Then we shall truly realize just how merciful He has been to us. We who are sinful dust, (we who actually believe that we are sometimes good in some ways), are being loved by an infite God, infinite in power and in mercy and righteousness... amazing grace indeed.
Julien
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Do we need to repent of our sin(s) first before we ... - 10/14/2008 2:56:35 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1884
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Julien...
We are sure in agreement regarding repentance...salvation does come first.
James is one or those passages that confuse and the other is Hebrews and the warning not to fall away. I personally can fit my head around James but I continue to have questions about Hebrew's.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Do we need to repent of our sin(s) first before we ... - 10/14/2008 9:14:59 PM
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jbow
Posts: 797
Joined: 2/16/2007
From: Dixie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Julien...
We are sure in agreement regarding repentance...salvation does come first.
James is one or those passages that confuse and the other is Hebrews and the warning not to fall away. I personally can fit my head around James but I continue to have questions about Hebrew's.
Bob
That passage in Hebrews really gave me the frights at one time in my life. I came to see "falling away" as meaning leaving faith in Christ and replacing it with a return to Mosaic Judaism, turning from Jesus as Messiah or leaving Christianity for any other "way". As long as one rejects Christ for another "way" they cannot be renewed to repentance. It cannot be falling into sin because Jesus said that we should forgive 70x7 in one day if someone offnds us with the same act that many times in a day. How much greater is His love and grace than ours. Falling into some sin is not falling away, even if the falling into sin causes a guilt that breaks fellowship and drives you into more sin. God is bigger than that and will come and get you. He will leave the 99 and come get you. His grace is so much bigger than we can even imagine.
The enemy will run people around with that passage. At least that has been my experience.
It does sort of blow a hole in the "once saved, always saved" doctrine. I guess one could do some sort of gymnastics with it but if you take it a face value, you have to deal with it. I am going to see what some commentators have to say about it. I just, this evening, ordered a copy of the Geneva Bible. I'll be interested to see how the folks who wrote the commentaries back then had to say about it.
Julien
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Do we need to repent of our sin(s) first before we ... - 10/14/2008 11:21:44 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1884
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Julien...
I was just reading this;
quote:
Paul versus James
The Epistle of James, in contrast, states that our good works justify before men, our faith after salvation, and we are to obey the Law of God, that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone, that faith without works is dead (James 2:14–26). Historically, the presence of this statement has been difficult for Protestants to reconcile with their belief in salvation by faith alone. Martin Luther even suggested that the Epistle might be a forgery, and relegated it to an appendix in his Bible (although he later came to accept its canonicity, see also Antilegomena). Though this may be interpreted through the word "justified." It speaks that faith in Jesus Christ is the first step and that faith is justified through good works, he goes on to say that without spreading your love and faith, it is dead. Works are the evidence of faith. It's not faith and works; it's faith that works. See also Law and Gospel, article on James 2:20 [16], Romans 2:6, Ephesians 2:8-10, Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification.
It should be noted that James also wrote: For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker. James 2:10-11. This makes it clear that people who want to keep the Old Testament Law must keep all of the Law. This is also stated in Deuteronomy 4:2 and Deuteronomy 28. According to Alister McGrath, James was the leader of a Judaizing party that taught that Gentiles must obey the entire Mosaic Law.[17]
It's a article from Wikipedia.
Thought you might be interested in reading what it has to say. You can see the confusion I was talking about.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Do we need to repent of our sin(s) first before we ... - 10/28/2008 9:43:37 PM
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jbow
Posts: 797
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From: Dixie
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Hi Bob,
IO have not read the article yet but I will
I wanted to say this though. Works are not always the same. We tend to think of the LAW when we think of works, of DO THIS & DON'T DO THAT. However, I think the works that James is speaking of are different from works of the LAW. Like the works Hebrews speaks of... works of FAITH. Works of walking in the Spirit. Abraham was justified by faith and by works. Abraham is the father of all who believe, all who are justified by faith and he lived ages before the law was given. So faith comes before the law and the works of faith are not the works of the law. The one who works according to the law works to establish his own righteousness and that cannot be sucessfully done. The one who works according to faith is made a participant in God's righteousness in Christ.
Different works alltogether. One to establish righteousness and the other because of righteousness... one, by the law, is self centered the other, by faith, is God centered.
So the works of the law are based on rules. The works of faith are based on the Spirit of life working in us. So by the works of the law we die and by the works of the spirit we live.
Julien
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Do we need to repent of our sin(s) first before we ... - 11/4/2008 9:45:15 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1884
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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quote:
So the works of the law are based on rules. The works of faith are based on the Spirit of life working in us. So by the works of the law we die and by the works of the spirit we live.
I totally agree with what you say here jbow...
It's our job to love God with all our heart and soul and to love others as ourselves...if we do this we have fulfilled the law.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Do we need to repent of our sin(s) first before we ... - 11/7/2008 1:45:45 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1769
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quote:
So the works of the law are based on rules. The works of faith are based on the Spirit of life working in us. So by the works of the law we die and by the works of the spirit we live.
It looks like we are getting sidetracked. The issue is not about works of the law vs works of faith.
The issue is whether or not we must repent in order to be saved (more precisely to receive remission of our sins), and the Bible is very clear. We must repent and be converted at the same time that we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore Paul joins these two requirements together in Acts 20:21:
"Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ".
Thus saving faith cannot be separated from repentance. We turn from our sins and idols and we turn to the living God and the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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