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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2008 4:28:51 PM
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Qtman
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I'm sorry Marksman but your posts along these lines just do not make sense. I myself am a cop not a teacher. However If I give someone instructions in something in which they are not familiar and I work with them until they are proficient at that thing then I have taught them. It does not matter if I am classified as a teacher or not. You are thinking , or at least it appears you are, of a teacher as a occupation or classification. That is not the only difinition of teacher. A teacher is one who teaches. It matters not what they are called. That is why I asked is you could not see the humor in the way you are thinking.
As to the rest of your post. I am anything but naive about satan and what he can do. I also know I serve one that can do so much more. This world would be a much better place if Christians would band together and take back the days satan claims instead of being to willing, like you, to say that day belongs to satan. My friend "NO" day belongs to satan. Never has and never will.
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Remember: God loves you and I'm trying!
~rogasinger4Him
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2008 8:18:33 PM
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Qtman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
It is not reasoning, it is saying what the scripture says. To use an analogy the word for redeemer in the Greek is never used to describe Paul, so no one talks about Paul being a redeemer. The word for teacher in Greek is not used to describe Priscilla, so it is logical to assume that she does not function as a teacher. My wife is a teacher and I introduce her as such, not as a flying instructor.
My school secretary might give advice and direction, but that does not make her a teacher because she works in a school just the same as Priscilla has a meeting in her home but that does not make her a teacher.
I am astounded by the logic you have used in this post, and I assure you that I have never seen logic like this used in any of the works of any biblical scholars.
And you won't because it is faulty logic. It is a desperate reach for something to back up a point that cannot be backed up.
I actually enjoyed his post. Kind of takes me back to my days as an investigator. When I had a case in court the defense attorneys used something quite similar. They would first attack the evidence. If that did not work they would attack the law. When that failed they would attack the witness. It's been a long time since I was in court facing those defense attorneys. I sure do miss that.
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Remember: God loves you and I'm trying!
~rogasinger4Him
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/11/2008 8:22:52 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2795
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From: California
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quote:
And you won't because it is faulty logic. It is a desperate reach for something to back up a point that cannot be backed up.
The magnitude of the faulty logic is what astounded me.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/12/2008 4:28:21 PM
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Marksman
Posts: 276
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From: Drouin, Victoria, Australia
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quote:
The magnitude of the faulty logic is what astounded me.
I realise there are people out there who cannot understand the obvious, especially Americans who think that they have a mortgage on the truth. That is why only 1% of churches in your country are growing.
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God Bless America
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/12/2008 10:13:11 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2795
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From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marksman
quote:
The magnitude of the faulty logic is what astounded me.
I realise there are people out there who cannot understand the obvious, especially Americans who think that they have a mortgage on the truth. That is why only 1% of churches in your country are growing.
Actually the 1% growth rate is the current rate of growth in Australia, not America. Here is a link for the Church Growth rate statistics in Australia.
However, if the rate of growth is the standard by which we measure truth, then you better convert to Islam quickly as it is currently growing at a much faster rate than Christianity. Personally, I choose to measure truth by God's word, and will adhere to it no matter how popular the alternatives are.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/14/2008 10:20:00 PM
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p31woman
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quote:
This is about men and womens role in the church, not in secular matters.
quote:
This can only apply to roles in the church.
Define church, then. Do you mean a woman can teach outside of a church building, but once she crosses the threshhold the scriptural mandate takes effect? Or do you mean that a woman can teach anyone who's not a believer, but cannot teach any part of the Church, i.e. the Body?
_____________________________
So don't let anyone pass judgment on you in connection with eating and drinking, or in regard to a Jewish festival or Rosh-Hodesh or Shabbat. These are a shadow of things that are coming, but the body is of the Messiah. Colossians 2:16-17
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/16/2008 4:34:52 PM
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Qtman
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It is my understanding church leaders should be called by God into ministry. Who am I to tell God aho He can and can't call. Does God call women? If He so choses he does yes. I for one will never try to tell Him he can not do that. WHy do so many "Christians" try to put God in this neat little box and not allow Him wo work outside that little box. Just plain don't make sense.
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Remember: God loves you and I'm trying!
~rogasinger4Him
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/16/2008 6:23:43 PM
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Stephanos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
It is my understanding church leaders should be called by God into ministry. Who am I to tell God aho He can and can't call. Does God call women? If He so choses he does yes. I for one will never try to tell Him he can not do that. WHy do so many "Christians" try to put God in this neat little box and not allow Him wo work outside that little box. Just plain don't make sense.
Problem is God would NEVER call someone to do something He expressly forbids. God would not call you to be a homosexual. God would not have called Israel to worship false Gods. God would not call someone to be a abortion doctor. THere are somethings God DOES NOT DO, not matter what the person says they were lead to do. If the bible does indeed limit what we know today as the Pastorial ministry to just men, then no matter how many women say they were led to be pastors, it is not true. Just because someone says they were "led by God" does not mean a single thing. Again, how many mothers have killed their children and said "God told me to", or how many have committed mass murder thinking God told them to?
As for the Box...I believe in and worship the God who has revealed Himself through Scripture. Scripture is the SOLE SOURCE for my understanding of Him and His commands. If the bible forbidds soemthing, that is the end of that. Period, end of argument. If that is putting Him in a box to you, then so be it. But it is the box that God HIMSELF has put Himself in as He the bible is His word.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/16/2008 8:07:31 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 10024
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
It is my understanding church leaders should be called by God into ministry. Who am I to tell God aho He can and can't call. Does God call women? If He so choses he does yes. I for one will never try to tell Him he can not do that. WHy do so many "Christians" try to put God in this neat little box and not allow Him wo work outside that little box. Just plain don't make sense.
Problem is God would NEVER call someone to do something He expressly forbids. God would not call you to be a homosexual. God would not have called Israel to worship false Gods. God would not call someone to be a abortion doctor. THere are somethings God DOES NOT DO, not matter what the person says they were lead to do. If the bible does indeed limit what we know today as the Pastorial ministry to just men, then no matter how many women say they were led to be pastors, it is not true. Just because someone says they were "led by God" does not mean a single thing. Again, how many mothers have killed their children and said "God told me to", or how many have committed mass murder thinking God told them to?
As for the Box...I believe in and worship the God who has revealed Himself through Scripture. Scripture is the SOLE SOURCE for my understanding of Him and His commands. If the bible forbidds soemthing, that is the end of that. Period, end of argument. If that is putting Him in a box to you, then so be it. But it is the box that God HIMSELF has put Himself in as He the bible is His word.
I am sorry brother but Baptist Theological Seminary or not you do not possess the authority to make statements about what God would NEVER do. God can do whatever He wants. If someone says they are called of God to the Ministry and in fact are not it is between them and God. I believe He even addressed that in scripture.
_____________________________
Remember: God loves you and I'm trying!
~rogasinger4Him
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/16/2008 8:17:32 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5374
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
It is my understanding church leaders should be called by God into ministry. Who am I to tell God aho He can and can't call. Does God call women? If He so choses he does yes. I for one will never try to tell Him he can not do that. WHy do so many "Christians" try to put God in this neat little box and not allow Him wo work outside that little box. Just plain don't make sense.
Problem is God would NEVER call someone to do something He expressly forbids. God would not call you to be a homosexual. God would not have called Israel to worship false Gods. God would not call someone to be a abortion doctor. THere are somethings God DOES NOT DO, not matter what the person says they were lead to do. If the bible does indeed limit what we know today as the Pastorial ministry to just men, then no matter how many women say they were led to be pastors, it is not true. Just because someone says they were "led by God" does not mean a single thing. Again, how many mothers have killed their children and said "God told me to", or how many have committed mass murder thinking God told them to?
As for the Box...I believe in and worship the God who has revealed Himself through Scripture. Scripture is the SOLE SOURCE for my understanding of Him and His commands. If the bible forbidds soemthing, that is the end of that. Period, end of argument. If that is putting Him in a box to you, then so be it. But it is the box that God HIMSELF has put Himself in as He the bible is His word.
Excellent post, Stephanos. Personal experiences cannot trump the clear and concise word of God.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/16/2008 8:44:00 PM
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Qtman
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O.K. Stephanos. Lets consider this. Paul, Timothy and the others was writing to a culture where women were second class citizens. Their place was in the home barefoot and pregnant. So they would not have considered them when they wrote the qualifications for deacons and pastors. It was a cultural thing. You cannot separate the culture from their writings. But for the sake of argument let me assume you are right and the qualifications listed in Timothy are set in stone and commanded of people for all times. We must take a literal word for word meaning of those qualifications. If this is the case we must also take a word for word meaning of Paul's writings. Paul said "let your women be "SILENT" in church. Let them "NOT" speak. If they have questions let them ask their husbands at home. FOr it is a "DISGRACE" for them to speak."
According to this, women can't teach anything, they can't sing, they can't pray they can't even greet on another once they enter the church. Sounds ludicrous don't it. That's because it is.
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Remember: God loves you and I'm trying!
~rogasinger4Him
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/16/2008 11:26:21 PM
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Stephanos
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First off, if you are going to go down the "culture" road, then you should be prepared to realize that for women 1st generational Christianity, that is the apostles generation, was the most the most FREEING that women during that era and culture faced. There is a reason that if you look at places like Timothy's parents (mother believer, father not) you see often that women in the church greatly out numbered the men (Acts 6...It was not just a few of the widows were being overlooked, why do you think the appointing of Deacons was so important). There was a freedom in Christ Jesus that the Roman Pantheon or what ever the view was in their part of the Roman empire did not give them. Furthermore, Christian's were teaching Christ Crusified. In the first century that was a major major issue that non-believers had. How did Paul put it again? To the Jew a stumbling block, to the Gentile foolishness. This was not some new theology, this was a world shaking theology. The cross at this time was a vile thing to this culture. And here these new Christians were saying that the savior of the world DIED on a cross. No true savior would DIE on a cross. But it got worse, not only were these people saying the Savior DIED on a CROSS (that vile symbol) but He also AROSE from the DEAD. Talk about culture shattering theology. You see, 1st Century Christianity was all about shattering cultural norms. Both for the Jews AND the Greeks. They were teaching a Savior crusified and risen. If it really was God's will to allow women to be pastors, then He would have done so here because He was shattering every other cultural norm that existed at the time. The fact that God through Paul said specifically that women could not teach, was for a very specific, non cultural reason. And simply put it was not God's will.
Furthermore, if you want to get technical, contrary to popular egaltarian belief about "temple prostitutes", in the Roman Pantheon women that did serve as Priestesses were HIGHLY respected. Just like any priest. Romans did not look at the gender of the person serving their gods, they saw the people they needed to go to, to please their gods. In fact some Roman gods had entirely female priestesses, and they were NOT sexual objects in the temple either. In someways God through Paul's limitation to elders/deacons/ect being male only was a slap against a culture where women priestesses WERE used.
As for the silent in church, this verse is nearly always taken so far out of context it is not even funny. So I will ask a simple question, why, even in the "culture" of the 1st Century, did God through Paul say this? Here is a hint read the section of text before and after this verse in 1st Corinthians. Notice something that seems to be connecting all these verses. Something along the lines of proper order in the church. You see the Corinthians were doing things OTHER than worshiping God when they came together. If you look at 1st Timothy, Paul speaks strongly at gossip. Look at the church today, in most churches when the pastor is speaking, what are some people (almost always women) doing while the pastor is speeking? Talking among eachother, gossiping about things going on, doing everything BUT focusing ont he word of God. Now imagine you are in a SMALL group of believers, like during the 1st century. WHen people met in the small areas of their HOUSE to have fellowship together. If anyone was speaking out of turn, or whispering between another, it was noticed by the whole group and it disrupted the time. Women were told to be silent because for the most part it was women disrupting the service. Frankly when God calls me to the pastorship, I will have a very low tolerance for people chatting in the back row. Either they stop or they leave. And this is exactly what Paul was saying.
Furthermore, in terms of "speaking in church", Paul himself makes several references to women serving in the churches, and obviously speaking. So the quesiton is how do YOU mesh these two ideas. Even if what Paul said was cultural, saying women can not speak in church, and at the smae time praising women who obviously were, is double speak. How do you mesh that? Well it shows that your interpretation and understanding of what paul is saying is flawed.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/16/2008 11:29:04 PM
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Stephanos
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PS
I would be VERY careful with this type of statement.
quote:
Sounds ludicrous don't it. That's because it is.
You may not agree with what is taught, you may even think it is cultural. But it is STILL the WORD OF GOD! It is FAR from ludicrous! The Word of God is perfectly holy and completely inerrent and infallible. It is right 100% of the time. Agreed our interpretation of scripture is where we get different all our problems from, BUT, God, through Paul DID say for women to remain silent. And that is NOT ludicrous at all!
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/17/2008 8:18:14 AM
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Qtman
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It is not what God told Paul to say I find ludicrous. It is that we explain away part of the teaching and dogmatically adhere to part. Either we treat the entire text as something we must do or we don't.
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Remember: God loves you and I'm trying!
~rogasinger4Him
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/17/2008 8:22:33 AM
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TheosCentric
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Do think women are to teach men?
Provide scripture for that.
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"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/17/2008 8:38:13 AM
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Qtman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
Do think women are to teach men?
Provide scripture for that.
Go back and read prior posts. That has already been answered.
_____________________________
Remember: God loves you and I'm trying!
~rogasinger4Him
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/17/2008 8:55:32 AM
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TheosCentric
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Perhaps it has, but I'm too lazy to go back and read prior posts, particularly since the search of this site is rather lame.
Can you provide scripture for women teaching men?
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/17/2008 8:59:02 AM
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Qtman
Posts: 10024
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From: Crimson Tide Country
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
Perhaps it has, but I'm too lazy to go back and read prior posts, particularly since the search of this site is rather lame.
Can you provide scripture for women teaching men?
So you want me to do your home work for you?
I can provide scripture but I am not going to I am not the one with the questions.
_____________________________
Remember: God loves you and I'm trying!
~rogasinger4Him
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/17/2008 9:05:46 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1890
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
Perhaps it has, but I'm too lazy to go back and read prior posts, particularly since the search of this site is rather lame.
Can you provide scripture for women teaching men?
So you want me to do your home work for you?
I can provide scripture but I am not going to I am not the one with the questions.
What would be the point of reading through 219 pages to find one obscure reference that just might "prove" women can teach men?
IOW, you don't have any proof that women can teach men in a church setting, particularly doctrine.
Paul says that he does not allow women to teach men. You can't get more clearer than that.
Like I said, where's the proof that women can teach men.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/17/2008 9:34:42 AM
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Qtman
Posts: 10024
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
Perhaps it has, but I'm too lazy to go back and read prior posts, particularly since the search of this site is rather lame.
Can you provide scripture for women teaching men?
So you want me to do your home work for you?
I can provide scripture but I am not going to I am not the one with the questions.
What would be the point of reading through 219 pages to find one obscure reference that just might "prove" women can teach men?
IOW, you don't have any proof that women can teach men in a church setting, particularly doctrine.
Paul says that he does not allow women to teach men. You can't get more clearer than that.
Like I said, where's the proof that women can teach men.
My fine young friend this is the kind of responses I have grown accustomed to on these forums. And it is these responses that cause me not to post any scripture in support of or in rebuttal to any post. Do not confuse my unwillingness to post the verses with the false belief they do not exist.
_____________________________
Remember: God loves you and I'm trying!
~rogasinger4Him
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 10/17/2008 10:47:17 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2795
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
Perhaps it has, but I'm too lazy to go back and read prior posts, particularly since the search of this site is rather lame.
Can you provide scripture for women teaching men?
So you want me to do your home work for you?
I can provide scripture but I am not going to I am not the one with the questions.
What would be the point of reading through 219 pages to find one obscure reference that just might "prove" women can teach men?
IOW, you don't have any proof that women can teach men in a church setting, particularly doctrine.
Paul says that he does not allow women to teach men. You can't get more clearer than that.
Like I said, where's the proof that women can teach men.
Because the point has been debated in this thread many, many times, and those scriptures are posted in this thread many, many times. It is ludicrous to assume that there is only one obscure post!
BTW - There is really only one scripture that appears to prohibit women teaching men (in 1 Ti. 2), but there are serious questions about the accuracy of that interpretation. At the root of the issues is Paul's use of 'authentien' (a word used only once in the entire NT), and the meaning that word had in other Greek literature. Also at issue is the fact that ALL versions of the bible translated before the 1930's treated this differently than it is treated in modern modern translations; most scholars today believe strongly that the earlier translations are actually better for this passage, and that modern translations reflect an over reaction to the modern woman's liberation movement.
As Qtman said, most of the details of these issues can be found many times over in this thread.
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