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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/7/2008 7:00:14 PM
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bob97
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I’m afraid that there have been many teenage girls and boys that have died without salvation down through the ages. The whole generation of Hebrews that God lead out of Egypt died without salvation…because they wouldn’t believe;
Hebrews 3:7-12 ( KJV ) 7Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/7/2008 7:47:13 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
Your human compassion is telling us one thing and the bible is telling us something different…which is correct?
They are both right Bob since Jesus told us to "love your enemy" and to "be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect."
Thus if we are to love our enemy we are imitating God, at least according to Jesus.
And yes i agree that there is no salvation outside of Christ but it is Jesus who holds the keys to death and hades and the lake of fire. (Rev 1.18).
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/7/2008 8:05:55 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1884
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quote:
They are both right Bob since Jesus told us to "love your enemy" and to "be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect."
Thus if we are to love our enemy we are imitating God, at least according to Jesus.
And yes i agree that there is no salvation outside of Christ but it is Jesus who holds the keys to death and hades and the lake of fire. (Rev 1.18).
I can sure agree with your outlook based on your statement...nothing wrong here.
So you do believe that Christ will judge and many will see punishment...those who do not believe.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/8/2008 12:01:13 AM
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Thessa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
Well, if it is as "clearly" as you claim than there would be no need to discuss this. One of the "clearly" stated desires of God, however is that NONE will be lost or perish. If God wants that to happen who are we to get in the way?
There is no need to discuss this.
But some people want to believe that even if they dont believe in the Lord and live a life of sin here on Earth that they will still enjoy the rewards of Heaven. And thats just not true.
quote:
Fortunately you don't get the last say, God does. This isn't about me or anyone else "clinging to that last thread of hope" because we fear hell or fear sin. God has defeated that. I, like you (I assume) are children of the living God who has placed all authority in heaven and earth with Jesus, who died to reconcile ALL things to God, not counting our sins against us and doing so while we were weak, sinners and even enemies towards God. That is Good News! The hope I cling to is none other than the hope of the gospel that proclaims to a fallen world that God hasn't given up on it.
peace.
Theres only ONE way to Heaven. You and i both know what that is. God told us. If a person listens then they will be saved, forgiven and spend eternity in Heaven. If not then they will go to Hell. It really dosent get any more simple than that.
_____________________________
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/8/2008 12:02:52 AM
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Thessa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
It's interesting Bob that if a mass murderer accepts Christ a few minutes before he dies on his deathbed he can spend eternity with Christ, yet a teenage girl who never heard of Christ dies of starvation in Darfur should spend eternity in hell. Anything else would be an offense to God , correct?
The way ive learned it is that if a person has never heard of Christ then they will enter Heaven because they havent denied Him.
_____________________________
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/8/2008 12:06:16 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1884
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quote:
The way ive learned it is that if a person has never heard of Christ then they will enter Heaven because they havent denied Him.
Can you provide scripture to support this Thessa or is this just something that you were taught?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/8/2008 11:36:41 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 460
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MrFribbles,
Since no one addressed your observation below I'd like to comment.
post #7 quote:
I find is amusing (and tragic) how quickly people agree that eternal life in heaven will go on and on forever, but that the eternal death in hell (or the lake of fire, or whatever word you want to use) will end.
That's not what they think. They think the word aion is a noun that's correctly defined in the bible as an age (a limited period of time). Whereas aionios is the adjective describing a quality of the noun aion. Grammar dictates that the adjective of a noun cannot have a force, definition, that's greater than the word it was derived from. So how can you take a noun/aion that means age and then interpret it's derivative/aionios as eternity?
The word wrongly translated in most bibles as eternity/aionios, simply means a quality of 'something' as it pertains to the age/aion. In the following verse we have a description of what 'life's' quality is.
JOH 17:3 And this is life eternal/aionios, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
'Aionios life', in this age/aion, is "to know God/Jesus". 'aionios life in the next age' is 'to know God'. Simply stated aion is a quantity of time and aionios is a quality within that time/age.
The author of Young's concordance also wrote a bible translation,
and Young's Literal Translation never defines aionios as eternal but as it truly is, something that relates to the age/aion.
YLT JOH 17:3 and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God,
To "know God and Jesus" is the definition of "eternal" life 'in this age' and in the next age. It has nothing to do with quantity of time but with a quality within time...in this case an age/aion.
As an example:
An hour/noun is 60 minutes. So how long are hourly/adjective meetings for 48 hours? Answer, they are still 60 minutes long but there's 48 hours in that timeframe. But hourly doesn't change the definition of an hour to 2880 minutes. Nor does aionios turn an age into eternity..only bad translating did/does that.
Bob,
post 25 quote:
So tell me…are you saying that Paul is giving us bad information?
Rom 10:9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
No, I don't think that's what they're saying what they're saying is 'that mandate' will be met in God's timing.
ROM 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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[Deleted] - 9/8/2008 11:49:17 AM
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Deleted User
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[Deleted by Admins]
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/8/2008 12:13:19 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
well put, him4all.
1 Tim. 6:16 declares that it is only God who has immortality. The Platonic notion that every soul is immortal is not a biblical notion. God can bestow immortality upon whom God will.
peace.
Which, according to Genesis, is all of mankind, which is made in His image.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/8/2008 12:16:21 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
No, I don't think that's what they're saying what they're saying is 'that mandate' will be met in God's timing.
ROM 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Don't confuse the forced submission of a vanquished foe with adoption into the family of God. They're nothing at all alike nor is their eternal condition. Relationship to the King is paramount.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/8/2008 12:18:55 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Thessa
quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
It's interesting Bob that if a mass murderer accepts Christ a few minutes before he dies on his deathbed he can spend eternity with Christ, yet a teenage girl who never heard of Christ dies of starvation in Darfur should spend eternity in hell. Anything else would be an offense to God , correct?
The way ive learned it is that if a person has never heard of Christ then they will enter Heaven because they havent denied Him.
The way that the Apostle Paul teaches it is that none are without excuse. None.
All have received sufficient knowledge and rejected it to be condemned. All.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/8/2008 12:41:29 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 460
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Jimbofletch,
quote:
Don't confuse the forced submission of a vanquished foe with adoption into the family of God. They're nothing at all alike nor is their eternal condition. .
I don't believe I am. But I do think that the view of God beating them into this 'submission' stems more from the belief in 'eternal torture' than it does belief in an eternal/adios savior who "ever liveth to make intercession".
I cannot see the God of the universe holding me to a standard that He Himself won't live up to. That standard being to 'forgive your enemies/foes'. I presently believe He will, and I therefore leave 'the timing' in His hand and the ages to come.
EPH 2:7 That in the ages (165) to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
You probably view this verse as saying He going to show you his grace for eternity/adios. But I think it means He will show 'them' the grace of salvation which we received in this age. What else does He need future AGES for?
EPH 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God -
quote:
Relationship to the King is paramount
The King and I heartily agree. 
DR
< Message edited by Him4all -- 9/8/2008 12:51:12 PM >
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/8/2008 12:51:10 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6631
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
I cannot see the God of the universe....
That fallacy is the source of a lot of really bad theology - it is simply man trying to make God in his own image.
The key to understanding Kingdom realities is to take God as He is and as He presents Himself - and not trying to force Him into your mold of what is and isn't proper.
Besides, it will save you a whole lot of time and grief. Just like Adam... and King Saul...
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/8/2008 12:51:46 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1884
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Revelation 20:10 ( KJV ) 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever(aion).
quote:
G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):—age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.
So DR…are you saying that when the bible say for ever and ever that it actually means only a duration?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/8/2008 4:18:17 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
Please note that the belief in an eternal Heaven and Hell are a part of this community's beliefs.
You do not have to agree with that, but we do not allow forceful and sustained argument against it--so tread carefully.
Thanks for allowing the topic to be discussed as these 3 views are out there and i think it's to everyone's benefit to search the scriptures.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/8/2008 4:45:44 PM
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Him4all
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Jimbofletch,
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
I cannot see the God of the universe....
That fallacy is the source of a lot of really bad theology - it is simply man trying to make God in his own image.
We are both certainly in agreement with your assumption, we just have different conclusions. For what it's worth, I used to have your conclusion before coming to mine. If I'm wrong I don't believe I'll go to hell for eternity, I'll just be disappointed for believing in a kinder God than you.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
The King and I heartily agree.
The question must always be asked: "Which king and which Jesus?" There are plenty of those vying for both positions.
I couldn't agree more, with your above quote too. At least we're on somewhat of a roll with agreement for your last two posts. 
Bob,
quote:
So DR…are you saying that when the bible say for ever and ever that it actually means only a duration?
Not necessarily, what I'm saying is that 'for ever and ever' is more correctly translated as:
YLT REV 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where {are} the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night - to the ages/aion of the ages/aion.
Now the question is, does "to the ages of the ages" mean eternity/aidios or does it mean until the last age in the ages to come? And to that I can't really say off the top of my head. If I've read something concerning this particular verse it isn't coming to mind. Hopfully someone else will be able to give some imput concerning your question.
I hope this answer isn't in violation for being "forceful and sustained". For if it is, then I'm certainly not living up to my new signature line and would appreciate any of you holding me accountable. I'm admittedly still, a work in progress too.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/8/2008 5:30:42 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
Right on! Heb.9:27 states "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment."
Yes we face judgment but does it only mean only retribution? Is God only interested in retribution? Is that what Jesus taught? Jesus who is the exact image of God, is that what he taught?
Does "love your enemy" mean retribution? After all Jesus has the keys to hell.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/9/2008 3:40:37 AM
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Thessa
Posts: 811
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
The way ive learned it is that if a person has never heard of Christ then they will enter Heaven because they havent denied Him.
Can you provide scripture to support this Thessa or is this just something that you were taught?
Bob
I think i was wrong in saying that actually..i did a bit more research.
http://www.new-life.net/faq211.htm
I find it hard to believe that there is anyone on this Earth thats never ever heard of Him. Even people in other Countries that worship their own "God" has had to have heard of Him somehow. They have just chosen to reject that knowledge. Do you know of anyone that, when the subject about God is brought up, (Unless its a child) that says 'who is that?' I dont.
There are missionaries that go from Country to Country preaching the word of God. There should not be ONE person on this Earth that is accountable with no knowledge of God and Jesus. Not ONE.
________________________________
quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
Yes we face judgment but does it only mean only retribution? Is God only interested in retribution? Is that what Jesus taught? Jesus who is the exact image of God, is that what he taught?
Does "love your enemy" mean retribution? After all Jesus has the keys to hell.
You arent understanding...i really want you to understand this.
We are not enemies of God. If we go to Hell then we send ourselves there. God loves everyone of us and dosent want to see us go there - we arent meant for Hell, but if any of us choose to reject belief in Him then we are sending ourselves there, with our eyes open.
You are saying Jesus has the keys to Hell? I think you are really honestly just hoping that if a person dosent accept that Jesus is real then they have a chance to go to Heaven...based on what? Their unbelief and rejection of Him? Is that enough information to accept them into the kingdom of Heaven? No.
You have been given MANY scriptures so far in this thread that should absolutely leave you with no more questions about this. I advise you to go to a pastor of a church that is not your own and talk about this maybe? Ask questions. I am still learning about some things i didnt know and didnt understand about the bible. But ONLY ways a person can get to Heaven and Hell are made VERY clear in the bible. Why? Because God wants to save us from hell. Thats why he sent Jesus to die on that cross. So we dont have to go. But if we dont repent and accept Jesus into our hearts then we are destined for Hell. Its so simple its almost a slap in the face to reject it. Its written out so plain. For every reason.
I assume that you are a mormon. I really feel you are. Mormons believe the way you are saying things. I know because i talked to one for a few years. She believes the exact thing you do. But she was wrong and so are you.
Hell is FOREVER. So is HEAVEN. Its up to each one of us where we are going someday. God has the keys but we unlock the doors.
_____________________________
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/9/2008 8:54:07 AM
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steve7150
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quote:
I assume that you are a mormon. I really feel you are. Mormons believe the way you are saying things. I know because i talked to one for a few years. She believes the exact thing you do. But she was wrong and so are you.
Hell is FOREVER. So is HEAVEN. Its up to each one of us where we are going someday. God has the keys but we unlock the doors.
No i'm not mormon. Mormons don't believe in hell only different levels of heaven. I thought i was clear but in case i was'nt, it's clear to me that the lake of fire will be a reality on judgment day. What i was interested in was whether there is any other purpose to it then retribution.
I became a believer 6 years ago and before that i had heard the name Jesus Christ but i had no understanding of who he is because no one ever explained him to me. So if i would have died 7 years ago according to you i would be in hell eternally.
Throughout the dark ages the Roman Catholic Church had possession of almost all the bibles in existence so 99% of the world's population had no idea who Christ was. Is salvation like a casino game where you have to be born at the right place and time to even hear the gospel or perhaps you just believe God elects certain folks to be saved?
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/9/2008 9:03:03 AM
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steve7150
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quote:
You have been given MANY scriptures so far in this thread that should absolutely leave you with no more questions about this.
Actually Thessa i have'nt been given many scriptures to support your view because there really are'nt a whole lot and i did examine the most compelling one which was Matt 25.46.
Of the half a dozen or so that do seem to support ET the issue really is whether or not they are translated accurately.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/9/2008 11:02:19 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1884
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Glad to hear your testimony Steve, but I do have a question. The word of God was all around you...people talk about it all the time. It's in the movies, on TV, on the news with both good and bad press; so here is my question...why didn't you pay attention?
Maybe...just maybe it took God whacking you on the head, wakening you up and causing you to pay attention. Could that be?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/9/2008 11:42:22 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 460
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From: Kansas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Glad to hear your testimony Steve, but I do have a question. The word of God was all around you...people talk about it all the time. It's in the movies, on TV, on the news with both good and bad press; so here is my question...why didn't you pay attention?
Maybe...just maybe it took God whacking you on the head, wakening you up and causing you to pay attention. Could that be?
Bob
If that's the case, then if God doesn't whack someone on the head isn't He ultimately responsible for them going to hell? That's what Calvinism and predestination must conclude.
And it was questions like that which used to bother me. I mean let's be honest, how many would refuse to confess Jesus if they were blown off their donkey and blinded by a light and Jesus spoke audibly to them?
JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw/helkuo him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
1670 helkuo: to drag (lit. or fig.)
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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I wish it was different, but sorry, that`s what the Bible teaches.