RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God?
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[Poll]
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Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God?
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| sometimes, but not often |
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Total Votes : 38
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(last vote on : 10/21/2008 9:03:06 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/15/2008 3:02:44 PM
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drmark
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quote:
To me this does not sound the actions of a just and loving God. Because they are not "the actions of a just and loving God"! They are the actions of well-defined geophysical forces and mechanisms occurring in a world degraded by human folly and sin. Is your real question why does God allow these events to occur, KaseyTom?
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/15/2008 3:05:34 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Natural disasters impact children and the elderly the most. They also disproportionally (by a huge margin) punish the poor over the wealthy.
To me this does not sound the actions of a just and loving God.
Or this could be explained by the fact that when push comes to shove, selfish humans tend to ignore the needs of the weakest and the poorest.
We often accuse God and ignore our own unwillingess to do what He says.
Then again, the materialists could be right and this behavior is simply keeping with the law of natural selection, wouldn't it?
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Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/15/2008 3:27:06 PM
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KaseyTom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
To me this does not sound the actions of a just and loving God. Because they are not "the actions of a just and loving God"! They are the actions of well-defined geophysical forces and mechanisms occurring in a world degraded by human folly and sin. Is your real question why does God allow these events to occur, KaseyTom?
My personal belief is that the earth is a stable and safe place for humanity to live and that the relatively small number of people who are impacted by natural disasters are simply victims of bad luck.
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/15/2008 3:39:01 PM
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drmark
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quote:
My personal belief is that the earth is a stable and safe place for humanity to live Given that the mortality rate on earth is infinitesimally less than 100%, you may want to revisit your personal belief system, KaseyTom. My personal belief assures me that heaven will be a much more "stable and safe place for humanity to live"!
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/15/2008 3:47:25 PM
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KaseyTom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
My personal belief is that the earth is a stable and safe place for humanity to live Given that the mortality rate on earth is infinitesimally less than 100%, you may want to revisit your personal belief system, KaseyTom. My personal belief assures me that heaven will be a much more "stable and safe place for humanity to live"!
My personal belief system is a product of my lifetime of experiences. If my experiences were the same as yours, I would have your belief system. If my experiences were the same as someone born in Pakistan, I would likely have an Islamic belief system.
Oops, off topic. <slap>
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/15/2008 4:07:29 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
My personal belief system is a product of my lifetime of experiences. If my experiences were the same as yours, I would have your belief system. If my experiences were the same as someone born in Pakistan, I would likely have an Islamic belief system.
Actually, our personal beliefs are a product of our choices; two people can grow up in the same family having the same experiences, and come to significantly different positions vis a vis a belief in God.
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Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/15/2008 4:31:07 PM
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KaseyTom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
My personal belief system is a product of my lifetime of experiences. If my experiences were the same as yours, I would have your belief system. If my experiences were the same as someone born in Pakistan, I would likely have an Islamic belief system.
Actually, our personal beliefs are a product of our choices; two people can grow up in the same family having the same experiences, and come to significantly different positions vis a vis a belief in God.
One cannot "choose" to believe or not believe something. Try choosing not to believe in God for a day. Try choosing to believe that Obama would make a better president that McCain. Try choosing not to love your wife.
Any off these can things happen to you, and if it does it will be because experiences changed your perspective. You can make some choices that will limit the possibility of these experiences influencing you, but more often then not you will not have the foresight make make such choices.
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/15/2008 4:59:05 PM
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drmark
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quote:
One cannot "choose" to believe or not believe something. What do you mean by this? Who has brainwashed your beliefs? Are you choosing right now to agree or disagree with me? How do you choose to define "choose"?
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/15/2008 7:01:40 PM
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Nothingman
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Its a bit of both btw...we are neither wholly free nor wholly determined, as far as our capacity for freedom of action, thought and belief is concerned. There is a freedom within the constraints that our enviroment and experiences impose upon us.
As for the OP, no, natural disasters are not God's punishment or a result of His will. It is simply the result of "random" chances that some die while others don't from natural disasters. I don't see God's hand in any of that, other than the response of love and caring towards others, of determination and hope to carry on, that is elicited within those victims. THAT, if anything, is what God's role is in those situations.
< Message edited by Nothingman -- 9/15/2008 7:51:34 PM >
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 12:56:40 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
One cannot "choose" to believe or not believe something. Try choosing not to believe in God for a day. Try choosing to believe that Obama would make a better president that McCain. Try choosing not to love your wife.
Any off these can things happen to you, and if it does it will be because experiences changed your perspective. You can make some choices that will limit the possibility of these experiences influencing you, but more often then not you will not have the foresight make make such choices.
Well, as a former agnostic who became a Christian (and evolutionist who now rejects evolution) I can catagorically state that one can choose to believe something or not believe it. I mean for a time as a child I believed that babies came directly out of a mothers stomach, until I read the appropriate article in the World Book Encyclopedia - which I chose to accept as true over my previous understanding.
Now if you are considering new information to be an 'experience' which can lead to a new belief, then your point is partly taken - but even then, two people exposed to the same information can choose to accept or reject it.
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Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 1:11:50 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
Its a bit of both btw...we are neither wholly free nor wholly determined, as far as our capacity for freedom of action, thought and belief is concerned. There is a freedom within the constraints that our enviroment and experiences impose upon us.
As for the OP, no, natural disasters are not God's punishment or a result of His will. It is simply the result of "random" chances that some die while others don't from natural disasters. I don't see God's hand in any of that, other than the response of love and caring towards others, of determination and hope to carry on, that is elicited within those victims. THAT, if anything, is what God's role is in those situations.
I don't know what your beliefs are about God, but what would random events killing people do to God's presumed sovereignty?
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Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 2:12:24 AM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well, as a former agnostic who became a Christian (and evolutionist who now rejects evolution) I can catagorically state that one can choose to believe something or not believe it. I mean for a time as a child I believed that babies came directly out of a mothers stomach, until I read the appropriate article in the World Book Encyclopedia - which I chose to accept as true over my previous understanding.
OK... Can you choose to believe that babies come directly out of a mother's stomach for the next two weeks?
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 8:54:17 AM
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drmark
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As you all know, C-section involves delivering the baby from the uterus through the abdominal cavity, not stomach. However, a young child does not possess adequate information or the ability to conceptualize the difference between the abdominal cavity and the stomach. Hence, the child chooses to believe the most likely explanation over stork delivery, for instance. Tell me, Veritas, if I choose to think for two weeks that you are a godly Christian saint pretending to be an atheist, does that change the facts of your religious beliefs?
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 9:40:19 AM
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Consecrated2God
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This thread is not about Obama, McCain, C-Sections, the SBC, or whether we can change our beliefs in our hearts.
Please return to topic.
Thank you.
Sincerely,
Lisa Luper
Moderator
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 9:49:33 AM
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MrFribbles
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I would say that the answer is no. God allows these things to happen, because they are a natural result (albeit a very unfortunate one) of living in this fallen world of ours. However, He does not make them happen, anymore than He makes a bobcat attack a hiker.
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 10:26:49 AM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
I would say that the answer is no.
The poll is running 75% no at this point. If bad weather is not a punishment from God, is good weather or other fortunate regional occurrence (a strong national economy, a good crop) similarly NOT a benison from God?
What about at the finer scale?
Is getting cancer a punishment from God?
Is remission from cancer a benison from God?
If one's answer to all of these is no, then what does God do?
If one's answer varies, can you explain why you think God does some of these things, but not others?
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 10:38:28 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
The poll is running 75% no at this point. If bad weather is not a punishment from God, is good weather or other fortunate regional occurrence (a strong national economy, a good crop) similarly NOT a benison from God?
What about at the finer scale?
Is getting cancer a punishment from God?
Is remission from cancer a benison from God?
If one's answer to all of these is no, then what does God do?
If one's answer varies, can you explain why you think God does some of these things, but not others?
First off, I think while weather (or any other painful circumstance) certainly could be a punishment from God, it's really not our place to say for certain that it is, because unless God has specified it somewhere, we really can't know God's mind on this.
We as Christians we do know a few things for certain; first that no circumstance is outside of God's control, secondly that everything happens to fulfill God's good purposes and bring Him glory, third that all men will someday perish whether by disaster or old age, and finally, that all men will ultimately face judgement resulting either in eternal life or death. Beyond all that the particulars are only speculation.
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Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 10:55:43 AM
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drmark
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Benison = a spoken blessing or benediction. Thanks, es, I've learned a new word today although one might argue its correct usage in this context of divine action, rather than spoken blessing.
Jack's 4-point summary of "Christian knowledge" is accurate and relevant to the discussion. However, I would add a fifth fact of Christian perspective as follows. God is loving, merciful, and gracious to all His creation and creatures so that we may be the recipients of "benison" much more frequently than we realize. In some doctrinal traditions this is called common or prevenient Grace and its demonstration may certainly sway the balance sheet toward beneficence on the "finer scale", as you put it, es.
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 11:18:46 AM
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Nothingman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
I would say that the answer is no.
The poll is running 75% no at this point. If bad weather is not a punishment from God, is good weather or other fortunate regional occurrence (a strong national economy, a good crop) similarly NOT a benison from God?
What about at the finer scale?
Is getting cancer a punishment from God?
Is remission from cancer a benison from God?
If one's answer to all of these is no, then what does God do?
If one's answer varies, can you explain why you think God does some of these things, but not others?
Well I don't conceive of God as all-powerful, not in the traditional sense, so when someone asks me what does God actually do, I explain that I believe that God does not act coercively in this world (like a magician) but acts persuasively (calling us to love, forgive one another, calling us towards ends, or telos, that fulfill his GOOD purpose.) In a very real sense then God is limited in his action in the world. So although I don't think a hurricane has ANYTHING of God's fingerprint on it, like I said, I do think the religious and devotional response that causes people to rise above that tragedy, so to speak, THAT I see as God's working within people and within the event to bring about the best possible outcome in the face of tragedy. And that is a very powerful effect, more powerful than us mere mortals can muster up on our own. God is there beside us and within, suffering in the tragedy with us, comforting us, strengthening us, giving hope, and in that, demonstrates his power and love to us.
I think a big problem for classical theists is to explain that if God is all-powerful, in the coercive sense, then why does he does prevent abject tragedies to occur, if he can? It’s a simple question, but one that I think either forces to come to one of a number of possible conclusions: either God is not all-powerful, or God is not all-good. This is perhaps a better topic to be discussed in Christian Doctrine tho probably...
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 11:50:46 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
Well I don't conceive of God as all-powerful, not in the traditional sense, so when someone asks me what does God actually do, I explain that I believe that God does not act coercively in this world (like a magician) but acts persuasively (calling us to love, forgive one another, calling us towards ends, or telos, that fulfill his GOOD purpose.) In a very real sense then God is limited in his action in the world. So although I don't think a hurricane has ANYTHING of God's fingerprint on it, like I said, I do think the religious and devotional response that causes people to rise above that tragedy, so to speak, THAT I see as God's working within people and within the event to bring about the best possible outcome in the face of tragedy. And that is a very powerful effect, more powerful than us mere mortals can muster up on our own. God is there beside us and within, suffering in the tragedy with us, comforting us, strengthening us, giving hope, and in that, demonstrates his power and love to us.
I think a big problem for classical theists is to explain that if God is all-powerful, in the coercive sense, then why does he does prevent abject tragedies to occur, if he can? It’s a simple question, but one that I think either forces to come to one of a number of possible conclusions: either God is not all-powerful, or God is not all-good. This is perhaps a better topic to be discussed in Christian Doctrine tho probably...
If things can happen to us over which God has no control, then on what basis would we seek God for comfort, protection and provision as Scripture regularly portrays the people of God doing?
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Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 12:02:11 PM
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drmark
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quote:
I think a big problem for classical theists is to explain that if God is all-powerful, in the coercive sense, then why does he does prevent abject tragedies to occur, if he can? There are lots of good explanations for your so-called "big problem", Nothingman. If you're truly interested, HERE IS a good place to start. And yes, this and the OP are subjects much better suited for the Christian Doctrine or God forums than these S&O threads.
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RE: Is bad weather such as hurricanes punishment from God? - 9/16/2008 12:26:28 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Benison = a spoken blessing or benediction. Thanks, es, I've learned a new word today although one might argue its correct usage in this context of divine action, rather than spoken blessing.
Quite right. I did not realize that benison was specific to a spoken blessing. Thanks for helping me re-learn a word I thought I knew.
And since drmark and I are having a rare love-fest, I'll quote the Bard:
God’s benison go with you, and with those
That would make good of bad, and friends of foes!
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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