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RE: Halloween 2008 - 10/13/2008 8:53:17 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
Anyone that wants to put down the Halloween Festivities needs to do some research for themselves and not rely on what they have been told by others.
The origin dates back to the Samhain of the Celts. Altough possibly pagan it had nothing to to with satanic celebrations or witches etc. The Samhain was originally a celebration of the harvest.
It's origins had to do with the ghosts of the dead walking with the living... It was surely pagan in nature... They offered up burnt sacrifices of animals and even plants to whom or whatever, but certainly not God...
quote:
The fact that witches and satan followers decided to use that day for their celebration has nothing to do with it. They are the ones that adulterated the celebration.
Actually it does since witches ofter sight ancient Celt beliefs and rituals, the very origins of what is now called Halloween
quote:
Again if one would take the time to do a little research one would find that Halloween has nothing to do with Satan or witches.
Actually Satan was involved from the start given the foundation is a pagan religion...
quote:
That is something that has been added fairly recently in the grand scheme of things.
Late 1800's... And it said to be due to the huge influx of Irish...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Halloween 2008 - 10/13/2008 9:52:25 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10516
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
The fact that witches and satan followers decided to use that day for their celebration has nothing to do with it. They are the ones that adulterated the celebration.
Actually it does since witches ofter sight ancient Celt beliefs and rituals, the very origins of what is now called Halloween
You realize that Mormons and Muslims cite Jesus right? Does that make Christianity pagan?
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: Halloween 2008 - 10/13/2008 10:21:26 PM
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BeckeyZ
Posts: 6388
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From: the sunny side of the street
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: BeckeyZ
If God created the pumpkin in the first place, exactly who made it evil?
That would be man and of course we are not simply talking about a pumpkin...
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And why is it so bad to use it as a witness tool to bring the message of Jesus to children?
Because for the most part that is an excuse to be like the world so people don't think Christians are KOOKS for not celebrating pagan holidays... This is more about being like our neighbor than it is bringing the message of Jesus to children because some folks cannot take their friends, family and people that don't really matter wondering about them for not doing what is considered by most, normal...
Well, tell ya what. If Halloween troubles y'all so much, you just stay in and hide from all the ghosties and demons. I however, will keep spreading the Good News of Jesus no matter what day it is, even if it means dressing goofy or carving up a pumpkin as a visual aid.
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RE: Halloween 2008 - 10/14/2008 12:18:14 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
The fact that witches and satan followers decided to use that day for their celebration has nothing to do with it. They are the ones that adulterated the celebration.
Actually it does since witches ofter sight ancient Celt beliefs and rituals, the very origins of what is now called Halloween
You realize that Mormons and Muslims cite Jesus right? Does that make Christianity pagan?
What does that have to do with witches looking back to Celt beliefs and rituals that were pagan as it relates to what is now Halloween? They thought the the spirits of the dead were close at that time of year... They offered burnt sacrifices to their 300+ gods... What wasn't pagan about them? If you have something that says they were actually worshiping God I'd be happy to see it since some were probably family given my genealogy...
Actually Muslims cite a prophet named Jesus, not Jesus the Son of God...
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 10/14/2008 12:25:23 AM >
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Halloween 2008 - 10/14/2008 12:20:21 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BeckeyZ
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: BeckeyZ
If God created the pumpkin in the first place, exactly who made it evil?
That would be man and of course we are not simply talking about a pumpkin...
quote:
And why is it so bad to use it as a witness tool to bring the message of Jesus to children?
Because for the most part that is an excuse to be like the world so people don't think Christians are KOOKS for not celebrating pagan holidays... This is more about being like our neighbor than it is bringing the message of Jesus to children because some folks cannot take their friends, family and people that don't really matter wondering about them for not doing what is considered by most, normal...
Well, tell ya what. If Halloween troubles y'all so much, you just stay in and hide from all the ghosties and demons. I however, will keep spreading the Good News of Jesus no matter what day it is, even if it means dressing goofy or carving up a pumpkin as a visual aid.
As instructed by?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Halloween 2008 - 10/14/2008 12:49:32 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
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I am puzzled there is even a question of the Celts being pagan... The Druids where their holy people...
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John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Halloween 2008 - 10/14/2008 9:44:20 AM
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tafkam
Posts: 2152
Joined: 9/23/2005
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Well, it took fifteen pages, but at least the discussion finall ygot interesting.....I was getting really bored with the Halloween thread this year...ten pages in and nobody had called me a heathen or a pagan yet....
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"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Halloween 2008 - 10/14/2008 9:49:56 AM
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armydude
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Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
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Sam, I didn't say this earlier, but the research you've done on the topic of the origins of Halloween is excellent. It would be nice if some others would do the same instead of relying on old wives tales (and then misspelling them)...
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RE: Halloween 2008 - 10/14/2008 10:14:43 AM
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Superduck77
Posts: 59
Joined: 8/9/2006
From: The other side of the pond
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sources please ..... alright the internet is full to the brim of sites that state everything concerning celtics and their ways and their calendar heres just some of the many
http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Medieval_Studies/archive/celts.html
http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/celtworld.html#Calendar
here is another that is directly connected to the trees
http://www.maryjones.us/jce/celtictreecalendar.html
since you dont want it from the wiccan books...but in the first year all learn this since they study for a year and a day......now there r more on the net but i will only post those
second thought heres a first year study book
http://www.wicca.com/celtic/catalog/books/HereditaryWitchcraft.htm
Now my disclaimer: I hate the craft it messed up my life for too many years it gave me memories scars and dreams i would rather NOT have my suggestion to anyone is DO NOT to go into that path it dangerous and it does NOT play nice....at all
I will also say and i know it is off subject in a way but open your eyes to the world around you the craft is everywhere and it is pulling for your children and am not kidding this is why i join in this topic to warn to open your eyes to what it is all about and that is to gather as much as possible in to the woods.......... :( and once they are there it is hard to leave i had to run to get away i left the country literally
quote:
It's origins had to do with the ghosts of the dead walking with the living... It was surely pagan in nature... They offered up burnt sacrifices of animals and even plants to whom or whatever, but certainly not God...
you got that right
< Message edited by Superduck77 -- 10/14/2008 10:21:12 AM >
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RE: Halloween 2008 - 10/14/2008 10:30:43 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 9495
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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Your own sources assert that there is no documentation of ancient Celtic customs. Their history was oral. There is only the record of the Romans and the writings of centuries later after the arrival of Patrick and Christianity was introduced. Both of which would be biased.
Your sources also indicate that Neopaganism draws from other cultures.
As I said, a cobbled together ideology grasping at historical straws to gain credibility.
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This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
10.13.08
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RE: Halloween 2008 - 10/14/2008 11:02:37 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2827
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Superduck77
here is another that is directly connected to the trees
http://www.maryjones.us/jce/celtictreecalendar.html
since you dont want it from the wiccan books...but in the first year all learn this since they study for a year and a day......now there r more on the net but i will only post those
The problem with looking for links that support your presuppositions, is that you often miss the details that stand in contradiction to those presuppositions. Directly from the link you provided in your post, it says:
"There are several problems with this calendar. First, he begins the year on December 23, not November 1--this is plainly wrong. He does this so as to coincide with the birth of the sun god. However, the Celts did not worship the sun per se, much less as a male sun (the word for "sun" in Irish is grainne--feminine, and the name of a goddess). Even if sunworship were involved, the year still began on Samhain, not midwinter. Now, he is somewhat correct in having months of 28 days; but the Celts would actually vary the lenght of the months, depending on the moon--Graves does not do this, but keeps the plan rigid.
And, as stated before, there is no evidence that the Celts ever named their months after trees. It just didn't happen. This is the result of Davies and Graves remembering that the Celts followed a lunar year, and picking and choosing the facts to suit their purpose, a problem epidemic to The White Goddess, Graves' wildly-popular book on the tree calendar, tree alphabet, and goddess worship. Graves even goes so far as to say that these 13 trees were also 13 signs of the zodiac--and that this constitutes the original Celtic Astrology. It does not. (read "The Fabrication of 'Celtic' Astrology" by Peter Beresford Ellis.)"
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RE: Halloween 2008 - 10/14/2008 2:30:38 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4260
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
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The church down the street set up their annual pumpkin patch. It's so cool! The little kids have so much fun there!
I want one of those in my back yard.
I mean ya know...without all the rotting and the cleaning up later. 
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RE: Halloween 2008 - 10/14/2008 2:40:44 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
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Hang in there SuperDuck... People have been attempting to make whatever ok by attaching God's name to it since the dawn of time... The five gallon bucket of Christan liberty could hold the Pacific these days...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Halloween 2008 - 10/14/2008 2:59:21 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1628
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: online
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quote:
People have been attempting to make whatever ok by attaching God's name to it since the dawn of time...
There's a large difference between "making something OK," and declaring that one, personally, believes a certain gray area to be OK.
Nobody could make prostitution OK, though some... Unique minded Christians tried to back in the day (what better way to evangelize than in bed, right?). That's a clear example of something clearly wrong being inappropriately justified by "turning it Christian." Clearly. On the other hand, the church I visited this Sunday played a recent Coldplay release as part of the sermon, because its theme fit very well with the topic at hand. Some people would say that's sinful. Personally, I (and the people in charge of the service, obviously) would disagree.
Please don't get hung up on my examples, since that would drag this thread stupendously off topic. But I hope my point it clear - some things are clearly wrong, scripturally. Other things are not. And I don't see anything in Scripture about celebrating Halloween.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Halloween 2008 - 10/14/2008 3:07:53 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
Status: offline
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Ah yes.........the All Hallows Eve forum.
Here's a little more for the stew
31 October and 1 and 2 November are called, colloquially (not officially), "Hallowtide" or the "Days of the Dead" because on these days we pray for or remember those who've left this world.
The days of the dead center around All Saints' Day (also known as All Hallows') on November 1, when we celebrate all the Saints in Heaven. On the day after All Hallows', we remember the saved souls who are in Purgatory being cleansed of the temporal effects of their sins before they can enter Heaven. The day that comes before All Hallows', though, is one on which we unofficially remember the damned and the reality of Hell.
Don't know about u. But I found THAT confusing.
What to do...What to do...
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RE: Halloween 2008 - 10/14/2008 3:19:07 PM
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Hayseed
Posts: 580
Joined: 4/15/2006
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I'm just wondered if anyone is as concerned with stumbling people with their "origin" stories of a day that most people don't even let that enter their mind.
Why would you want to make it something it's not for others?
I'd have to say selfishness.
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My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Halloween 2008 - 10/14/2008 3:44:22 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
There's a large difference between "making something OK," and declaring that one, personally, believes a certain gray area to be OK.
Generally the difference is what people wish to white wash with the name of God...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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