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ORIGINAL: bob97

Hi Thessa...

God is Spirit and without form. God in invisible and no man has ever seen God. The form of God that appeared in the garden and all down through the Old Testament was actually the Pre incarnate Jesus Christ who is the visible image of the invisible God.


Colossians 1:15-17 ( KJV ) 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Bob

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ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

First, let me assure you that's nothing to apologize for. God loves it when we want to learn more about Him.

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That's a good question, and one I think we'll have to wait until heaven to know for sure about. One thing to consider, though, is that God dealt very differently with Adam and Eve than He does with us. Even the next generation, Cain and Abel, didn't experience God in the same ways.
It's very difficult to discern anything definite in the little details of the creation narrative. As an example - nowhere does it say Satan was present in this event, only a talking serpent. How are we to understand that, especially since, according to most historians, the idea of Satan as a unique, spiritual, evil being did not arise until around the time of the Babylonian exile, which was long, long, long after Genesis was written down. All that to say, you'll get lots of answers from different people (like bob above me), and I think that's a healthy thing. God doesn't mind us having different theories, as long as none of them contradict essential truths of who He is.

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Hi Bob! Thanks for that. I always kinda half-way knew that to be true as well, except that i have always thought He was a person. Its hard for me to imagine Him being anything but, mainly because he made Adam in his image.

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Because i always feel guilty when i try to learn about Him cause im afraid He will think i should already know some of these things

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ORIGINAL: Thessa

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:26

So that leads me to believe He is an image of a man. Right?

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ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

Trust me, there is no reason to feel guilty. : ) Part of a relationship is getting to know a person. When you first met a good friend, you didn't know everything about them, right? In the same way, our relationship with God grows over time, and as a result, we grow in how much we know about Him. Sometimes that growth is learning something totally new. Other times, it's relearning something we may have not had quite right before. And God loves it when learning happens, because it's part of us drawing closer to Him.

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As for the serpent thing, I really have no idea. It's something I've been tossing around in my head off and on too. I would definitely say there was a demonic influence present during that event, but whether or not the serpent was literally Satan or not is a bit less clear to me. I also like the idea that animals may have been capable of speech before the fall, since, if it is true, it would show us yet another way sin messed up this world - and more importantly, another way that God will make it better when the new heaven and new earth show up at His 2nd coming!

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ORIGINAL: Makrothumeo
Sorry to jump in the middle of your conversation but I couldn't help but be stopped by this rather striking statement. Am I correct in understanding that you believe God to be physical, or material, or that you are feeling lead to believe this?

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The statement in Genesis 1:26 and later in Genesis 9:6 that man is made in the image of God is understood best as referring to the attribute of personality. We already know that God is not a material being but that God is spirit.

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When we say that God is spirit we are saying that God's very nature is spirit, that He is not a material being nor is He limited to the material realm. The pantheist would say that God is intimately connected to the material realm--that it is a part of Him and He is a part of it--and that He cannot escape it. But the God of the Bible is spirit and He is not limited to the physical realm because He is the creator of the physical realm and He existed before the physical realm existed. As John tells us in chapter 4 verse 24 Jesus says that, "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth." (see further (1) Spirituality, @ link)

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So when we speak of man as made in the image of God we don't mean that God is 6 foot tall, brown hair, etc., etc. What the Bible is speaking of is man's differentiation from the rest of the created order and his likeness to God (not in a physical sense). Man (please allow me to use this term generically) has intrinsic value, that is, every man has value because he is made in the image of God.

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Before all of creation existed there was the Triune God--or said another way--before "In the beginning" nothing created existed, it was absolute nothingness, except for the infinite-personal God who was always there. And personality, freedom, love, communication were there. There was love and communication between the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. Without the Trinity then love, and communication do no exist as we know them and God was forced to create so that He would have an object for which love, communication and personality can be defined. This removes also the idea of freedom in any real sense. But God was not forced to create in order to love because before creation there was the Father who loved the Son and there was also the Holy Spirit to love and be loved. In other words, God had someone face-to-face with Himself in the three Persons of the Trinity.

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The universe had a personal beginning--a personal beginning on the high order of the Trinity. That is, before "in the beginning" the personal was already there. Love and thought and communication existed prior to the creation of the heavens and the earth.

It is in this sense that man is made in the image (or likeness) of God. And so, when modern man screams for love and communication (as he so frequently does), Christians have an answer: There is value to love and value to communication because it is rooted into what intrinsically always has been.

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ORIGINAL: Thessa

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ORIGINAL: Makrothumeo
Sorry to jump in the middle of your conversation but I couldn't help but be stopped by this rather striking statement. Am I correct in understanding that you believe God to be physical, or material, or that you are feeling lead to believe this?

Im just trying to understand what that verse means. To me its literal. Because of what it says. In our image...so that means what? If i was to make something in my image id make a girl that looked like me. Im just taking what it says literally.

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The statement in Genesis 1:26 and later in Genesis 9:6 that man is made in the image of God is understood best as referring to the attribute of personality. We already know that God is not a material being but that God is spirit.

Well it never says personality. It says image.

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When we say that God is spirit we are saying that God's very nature is spirit, that He is not a material being nor is He limited to the material realm. The pantheist would say that God is intimately connected to the material realm--that it is a part of Him and He is a part of it--and that He cannot escape it. But the God of the Bible is spirit and He is not limited to the physical realm because He is the creator of the physical realm and He existed before the physical realm existed. As John tells us in chapter 4 verse 24 Jesus says that, "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth." (see further (1) Spirituality, @ link)


Again. It says image. Image means something you can see. Im not saying He is a human being like Jesus. I know Hes never been seen by anyone with the exception of Adam and Eve or some after that. The thing is - i dont know. When i read the bible i take it literally. I cant assume that it means something else when it says something. Like when it says

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Mark 13:32

I take that to mean that only He knows. Even though people think that its a certain date and has done 'research' and think they know the date, NO ONE knows because thats what He said.
Do u see what im saying?

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So when we speak of man as made in the image of God we don't mean that God is 6 foot tall, brown hair, etc., etc. What the Bible is speaking of is man's differentiation from the rest of the created order and his likeness to God (not in a physical sense). Man (please allow me to use this term generically) has intrinsic value, that is, every man has value because he is made in the image of God.


But how do you know he dosent look like that? You dont and neither do i.
No one says what Adam looked like either.

I only know about God what He has revealed in His creation and through His revealed word.

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Before all of creation existed there was the Triune God--or said another way--before "In the beginning" nothing created existed, it was absolute nothingness, except for the infinite-personal God who was always there. And personality, freedom, love, communication were there. There was love and communication between the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. Without the Trinity then love, and communication do no exist as we know them and God was forced to create so that He would have an object for which love, communication and personality can be defined. This removes also the idea of freedom in any real sense. But God was not forced to create in order to love because before creation there was the Father who loved the Son and there was also the Holy Spirit to love and be loved. In other words, God had someone face-to-face with Himself in the three Persons of the Trinity.

So you are saying there are 3 Gods instead of 1?

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The universe had a personal beginning--a personal beginning on the high order of the Trinity. That is, before "in the beginning" the personal was already there. Love and thought and communication existed prior to the creation of the heavens and the earth.

It is in this sense that man is made in the image (or likeness) of God. And so, when modern man screams for love and communication (as he so frequently does), Christians have an answer: There is value to love and value to communication because it is rooted into what intrinsically always has been.

I know God has always existed. But what the thing is that i havent seen anywhere in the bible where it speaks of trinity.
Can you give me a verse that says that? Because i take the words of the bible VERY literally and VERY much at absolute truth.

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I also take that verse literally. Do you take John 4:24 literally as well?

Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

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Letting the Bible speak as a whole we know that God is not limited to the physical realm, this is something called pantheism or panentheism. There is no reason to believe that "image" here means that God has arms and legs and hair and eyes like humans do.

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No not at all, what you're talking about is "Tri-theism" not the Trinity. There is one substance, to use the terminology used by some of the Greek fathers of the early church, one ousia, one being of God. God is indivisible, He cannot be divided up whether it be in three parts or a thousand, you cannot divide God up. If you could picture God's being and chop it up into pieces that would cease to be God.
This is the root of biblical monotheism--the belief that there is only one God. If you recall the Jewish people rise in the morning would recite the Schma. The Schma starts off, "Hear O' Israel, Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one." It is central to the revelation of God's word that God is one. There are not two Gods or three Gods, but only one God. Never confuse Tri-theism with the Trinity, they are not at all the same thing.

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I'm glad you have such a high view of Scripture! I too take the Bible literally and as absolute objective truth. There is no one verse you can look up and read, "God is Trinity" but in letting the Bible speak for itself as a whole and complete work we can know truth as it is.

I haven't the time to commit right now to the forum but I'm writing a few posts on my blog about the Christian Doctrine of the Trinity so instead of hashing it all out here again you can read it there. But also here are some good places to research this subject:

A Brief Definition of the Trinity by James R. White
The Nature of God - The Tri-Unity of God by James R. White
Christian Doctrines
The Forgotten Trinity by James R. White
Grudem's Systematic Theology

sorry, have to get to church, glad you're thinking on these things!!

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ORIGINAL: Thessa

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I also take that verse literally. Do you take John 4:24 literally as well?

Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

Yes i do.

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Letting the Bible speak as a whole we know that God is not limited to the physical realm, this is something called pantheism or panentheism. There is no reason to believe that "image" here means that God has arms and legs and hair and eyes like humans do.

But there is also no reason to think He dosent. Can u guarantee 100% that he dosent look like a human? Probably not.

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No not at all, what you're talking about is "Tri-theism" not the Trinity. There is one substance, to use the terminology used by some of the Greek fathers of the early church, one ousia, one being of God. God is indivisible, He cannot be divided up whether it be in three parts or a thousand, you cannot divide God up. If you could picture God's being and chop it up into pieces that would cease to be God.
This is the root of biblical monotheism--the belief that there is only one God. If you recall the Jewish people rise in the morning would recite the Schma. The Schma starts off, "Hear O' Israel, Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one." It is central to the revelation of God's word that God is one. There are not two Gods or three Gods, but only one God. Never confuse Tri-theism with the Trinity, they are not at all the same thing.

I am totally lost. lol
Its just really confusing to me. Im 33 and have believed in God all my life and never until about a month ago on another site have i ever heard before of the trinity. Ive read most of all the bible, too, and have never seen it in there either - so when i was first directed to it i totally thought it was proposterous. Because of what i believe to be true of the bible and its word. I figured it was just something someone came up with.
I know there is only one God. But how is God in Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as well? Am i getting it totally wrong? lol This is really confusing to me. I aploogize for asking so many questions but i really wanna know this and if i can speak to my pastor today at church in a couple of hours im gonna see what he says about it too.

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I'm glad you have such a high view of Scripture! I too take the Bible literally and as absolute objective truth. There is no one verse you can look up and read, "God is Trinity" but in letting the Bible speak for itself as a whole and complete work we can know truth as it is.

I haven't the time to commit right now to the forum but I'm writing a few posts on my blog about the Christian Doctrine of the Trinity so instead of hashing it all out here again you can read it there. But also here are some good places to research this subject:

A Brief Definition of the Trinity by James R. White
The Nature of God - The Tri-Unity of God by James R. White
Christian Doctrines
The Forgotten Trinity by James R. White
Grudem's Systematic Theology

sorry, have to get to church, glad you're thinking on these things!!



Thats okay! Take ur time!
But please when you have the time explain to me the difference in tri-theism and trinity. And which one is correct? Is there a correct one? Or is it all according to which religion you follow and what you believe? And why is this not in the bible if God wants us to follow it?

I reallize you may not know all these answers, but if you can explain any of them to me id really appreciate it.

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ORIGINAL: TrustingChrist
So the question is What about Jesus? Is he not born fully human just as us? Was he born is a sin nature?

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If not then how is it that he was born just as us?

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Does the bible teach that we inherit our fathers sin or we are only responsible for the sins we our self commit?

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Maybe we need to rethink the born in sin / sin nature line of thinking and see if there is a way to line it up where we have Jesus being born as we are and not with sin.

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ORIGINAL: Makrothumeo

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ORIGINAL: Thessa

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I also take that verse literally. Do you take John 4:24 literally as well?

Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

Yes i do.

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Letting the Bible speak as a whole we know that God is not limited to the physical realm, this is something called pantheism or panentheism. There is no reason to believe that "image" here means that God has arms and legs and hair and eyes like humans do.

But there is also no reason to think He dosent. Can u guarantee 100% that he dosent look like a human? Probably not.

I can guarantee you 100% that God is not a material being, and when we look at the context of verses like Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 9:6 and others that speak of man being made in the "image" or "likeness" of God and also when we consider the whole of Scripture then we know for certain that God is not a material being. That's a rather shallow answer so I'll try to work it out in a bit more depth for you as soon as I can; if you want to get a start on it the links I provided are a good start.

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No not at all, what you're talking about is "Tri-theism" not the Trinity. There is one substance, to use the terminology used by some of the Greek fathers of the early church, one ousia, one being of God. God is indivisible, He cannot be divided up whether it be in three parts or a thousand, you cannot divide God up. If you could picture God's being and chop it up into pieces that would cease to be God.
This is the root of biblical monotheism--the belief that there is only one God. If you recall the Jewish people rise in the morning would recite the Schma. The Schma starts off, "Hear O' Israel, Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one." It is central to the revelation of God's word that God is one. There are not two Gods or three Gods, but only one God. Never confuse Tri-theism with the Trinity, they are not at all the same thing.

I am totally lost. lol
Its just really confusing to me. Im 33 and have believed in God all my life and never until about a month ago on another site have i ever heard before of the trinity. Ive read most of all the bible, too, and have never seen it in there either - so when i was first directed to it i totally thought it was proposterous. Because of what i believe to be true of the bible and its word. I figured it was just something someone came up with.
I know there is only one God. But how is God in Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as well? Am i getting it totally wrong? lol This is really confusing to me. I aploogize for asking so many questions but i really wanna know this and if i can speak to my pastor today at church in a couple of hours im gonna see what he says about it too.

Oh, I'm sorry if I've confused you at all, I'll do my best to present my case for you, though I only ask for your continued patience and striving for truth as I already see evident in your posts.

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I'm glad you have such a high view of Scripture! I too take the Bible literally and as absolute objective truth. There is no one verse you can look up and read, "God is Trinity" but in letting the Bible speak for itself as a whole and complete work we can know truth as it is.

I haven't the time to commit right now to the forum but I'm writing a few posts on my blog about the Christian Doctrine of the Trinity so instead of hashing it all out here again you can read it there. But also here are some good places to research this subject:

A Brief Definition of the Trinity by James R. White
The Nature of God - The Tri-Unity of God by James R. White
Christian Doctrines
The Forgotten Trinity by James R. White
Grudem's Systematic Theology

sorry, have to get to church, glad you're thinking on these things!!



Thats okay! Take ur time!
But please when you have the time explain to me the difference in tri-theism and trinity. And which one is correct? Is there a correct one? Or is it all according to which religion you follow and what you believe? And why is this not in the bible if God wants us to follow it?

I reallize you may not know all these answers, but if you can explain any of them to me id really appreciate it.

The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible but the concept definitely is, and it's importance even more so but I'll get to that later.
I certainly don't know ALL the answers but I'll do what I can with the time that I have. This is also not an easy answer subject, and I wouldn't want to give you a quick and easy answer because the very nature of what we're talking about is truth that God has revealed to us about Himself that we could not otherwise know without His revelation.

Many blessings to you!

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But Adam had the capacity to sin, and did sin. Christ -- the last Adam -- did not have the capacity to sin because He is God.

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Based on Hebrews 4:15b - "but we have one [Jesus] who has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet was without sin." - it is reasonable to believe that Christ must have had the capacity to sin or He was not tempted just as we are.

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ORIGINAL: bob97

Hi dr...I guess you must have posted this on on the wrong thread because you are talking about something totally new here.

Bob

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I guess the response I made was the fact the posts 21 and 23 were not make by Dave or Dr.

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The temptations presented to Him were no doubt real, but there could not be a sinful response to them within Christ, the Holy One of Israel.