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Dress Code Issue - 7/30/2008 5:17:02 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 705
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I am an elder in our church, which is only a couple of years old. As such, there are a lot of "bugs" to work out and I believe this is one.
The coordinator of our worship (music) ministry (a woman) recently started adding a signing (ASL) to the worship. She had two teen-aged ladies signing along with the worship team. These two young ladies are very exceptional for their age...one happens to be my own daughter! They dress very carefully and conservatively and don't give the impression that most girls their age do. I've never known either of them to dress inappropriately, either in or out of church.
As part of their joining the worship team, she (the coordinator) had them sign a "contract" of sorts. Part of that contract contained a dress code, but is not explicit. It reads that an over-blouse, jacket or sweater is "preferred".
There was a hot Sunday recently that one of the girls (not my daughter) wore a sleeveless top (and we do not have airconditioning yet!). She was completely covered with the exception of just her arms. It was not low cut, not a tank-top, no large armholes...simply sleeveless. I saw nothing inappropriate about it but the coordinator told her the top was out of order and she must have sleeves.
The next Sunday the same girl wore a very nice outfit...skirt down to her ankles, with no slit and a short-sleeved top. Not low cut, either. The coordinator told her this was also inappropriate and that she must wear a jacket or sweater!
It's become obvious that this woman does not like this young girl, even though the rest of the worship team, the church leadership and the congregation think she's just wonderful. I'm wondering if the fact that the only other members of the worship team are men or the fact that this woman has a weight problem has anything to do with the situation. My daughter is only 13 and lovely but still looks like a little boy, while this other girl is 18 and lovely and looks like a young woman.
Now this young lady has quit the worship team and she and her family are very upset. I cannot blame her or them, but don't know what to do. This woman's husband is also an elder, so I cannot objectively discuss the situation with him. And I'm not clear as to whether to allow my daughter continue either. We've had our own problems at home, having to make her wear jackets and sweaters.
Oh, and I have to add this...it was suggested to this woman that she amend the wording in the "contract" to say "required" instead of "preferred". She does not like this idea and rejects it, stating that she's the coordinator and her call.
Do we have a little tyrant in this music coordinator? Is there something I'm missing? Do we just have to suck it up and get used to it?
Help?
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/30/2008 6:33:04 PM
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mvic
Posts: 1542
Joined: 1/17/2008
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I am totally confused ... which is easily done.
I can't understand why or how joining a worship team requires the signing of a contract. What does the contratc say? What is it for?
If I were to join a Bible Study group at my church would I have to sign a contract? What for? To do what exactly?
That said: surely there is a pastor or someone in charge at this church with whom you can discuss matters. I accept that this woman's husband is an elder, (like you), and you prefer not to raise the matter with him. But surely there's someone else to raise the matter with?
You say the woman said: she's the co-ordinator and it's her call. What does that mean? Is it a paid position? Is she employed in this capacity? By whom?
I genuinely can't understand the problem. Maybe because in the UK things are different.
If this matter is causing you difficulties I suggest going to another church.
Church is for praying to God. Not to sign contracts and to have a dress code.
Please forgive me if I miss-understood the situation.
_____________________________
Christian words of comfort at http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
Welcome to my Blog
MEI VITA INDICO CHRISTUS
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/30/2008 7:10:13 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6098
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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If the dress is modest and not inappropriate - the coordinator needs to be told by the church pastor/leaders to let it be.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/30/2008 7:30:59 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6098
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wonder_Woman
This poor young woman was in tears and barely able to sing. She quit the choir immediately after the service. The funny thing was, they couldn't understand why people weren't lining up to join.
That is absolutely horrible and downright angers me. Someone responsible for that incident should have been spoken with.
Luke 17:2 "It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble..."
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/30/2008 7:35:11 PM
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Dancre
Posts: 1280
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It's not that the worship leader didn't like the girl, it's just that when someone is helping in worship or leading worship, they MUST be careful what they wear. You want the attention on Christ and what He is trying to do through the worship, not on the person. My Dance Worship team, which I belong to, has a dress code, arms covered, legs covered, etc. even in practice. With a sleeveless shirt, sometimes if she lifts her arms part of her bra can show b/c of the arm holes, bra straps show, etc. And if she is overweight, then her breasts may be bigger than a skinny girl and the sleeveless shirt molds her chest more than a long sleeve shirt, thus putting attention on her chest and not God. It can be a very iffy situation.
And other times, well, men sometimes just get weird and think all kinds of things when a woman shows any type of flesh, including her arms. And if she allows one person to wear sleeveless, everyone wears sleeveless. And then everything shows. Does that make sense? If fact, when my group dances, we MUST wear long sleeves, and skirts that go below the knee. In fact, sometimes I have to wear 5 peices of layered clothing. OI!!! I know of women who wear turtle necks and won't even show the neck. I think the leader is just trying to cover her basis and keep her girls safe, just as my worship leader does. Trust me when I say, she's doing the right thing. I know it's hard to understand, but things can get 'weird' even if a woman shows her arms during worship. :)
And I just want to add, that she is in charge of the worship team and unless the pastor says, no contract, then you really need to be submissive to her. Sometimes I don't agree with my leader, but I'm under her authority and I stay under it. God blesses me for doing it. :)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
I am an elder in our church, which is only a couple of years old. As such, there are a lot of "bugs" to work out and I believe this is one.
The coordinator of our worship (music) ministry (a woman) recently started adding a signing (ASL) to the worship. She had two teen-aged ladies signing along with the worship team. These two young ladies are very exceptional for their age...one happens to be my own daughter! They dress very carefully and conservatively and don't give the impression that most girls their age do. I've never known either of them to dress inappropriately, either in or out of church.
As part of their joining the worship team, she (the coordinator) had them sign a "contract" of sorts. Part of that contract contained a dress code, but is not explicit. It reads that an over-blouse, jacket or sweater is "preferred".
There was a hot Sunday recently that one of the girls (not my daughter) wore a sleeveless top (and we do not have airconditioning yet!). She was completely covered with the exception of just her arms. It was not low cut, not a tank-top, no large armholes...simply sleeveless. I saw nothing inappropriate about it but the coordinator told her the top was out of order and she must have sleeves.
The next Sunday the same girl wore a very nice outfit...skirt down to her ankles, with no slit and a short-sleeved top. Not low cut, either. The coordinator told her this was also inappropriate and that she must wear a jacket or sweater!
It's become obvious that this woman does not like this young girl, even though the rest of the worship team, the church leadership and the congregation think she's just wonderful. I'm wondering if the fact that the only other members of the worship team are men or the fact that this woman has a weight problem has anything to do with the situation. My daughter is only 13 and lovely but still looks like a little boy, while this other girl is 18 and lovely and looks like a young woman.
Now this young lady has quit the worship team and she and her family are very upset. I cannot blame her or them, but don't know what to do. This woman's husband is also an elder, so I cannot objectively discuss the situation with him. And I'm not clear as to whether to allow my daughter continue either. We've had our own problems at home, having to make her wear jackets and sweaters.
Oh, and I have to add this...it was suggested to this woman that she amend the wording in the "contract" to say "required" instead of "preferred". She does not like this idea and rejects it, stating that she's the coordinator and her call.
Do we have a little tyrant in this music coordinator? Is there something I'm missing? Do we just have to suck it up and get used to it?
Help?
< Message edited by Dancre -- 7/30/2008 7:43:40 PM >
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/30/2008 8:13:20 PM
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hjemerson
Posts: 232
Joined: 3/4/2008
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Well it is sad we have to have this type of thing to deal with in church, BUT as the world has it we must ,working in the church things as dress code must be a issue. BUT it must be related to all menber to the group it aplled to in a love caring way, never should one be embasssed . As for the arm covering this is done in may churchs due to the wandering eyes and the way sin can creep in, Really that why a lot of groups have gone back to robes or a basice dress code white sleeeve top blacks skirt to knees or lowwer ot pants in come church. If you can abile by a test of faith as to teh dress code then we need to look at teh reason it is in place , to show respect,for the Lord and His woship. Some church meme in postion as on platfrom must have tie and suit jacket, I guess it really must depend on the church and thearea you are in I also lived in Fla for 10 yrs and most of the dress codes were not a issue. Come as you are JUST COME! Many Christian college still have a dress code no pants till after 12:00 noon no jeans, females must wear no tanks ,wear proper under graments . guy must wear shirt and ties ,clean and pressed. Yes many campus are doing this as submisstion to the Lord service, To prove to self and other they can do these little thngs as love for the Lord and prepare for teh misson fleids etc.
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/30/2008 9:28:48 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 705
Joined: 6/12/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
If the dress is modest and not inappropriate - the coordinator needs to be told by the church pastor/leaders to let it be.
Well, that's part of the problem. As I said, it's an infant church and there are only two elders...myself and the woman's husband...and we share the pastoring duties at this point. And this woman is one of our three deacons, as well.
The coordinator has been asked to make the language specific and I don't think there would be a problem if that were to be done. However, she refuses to do this so the poor kid just couldn't win. The coordinator does insist on having a statement in the policy that all "final decisions are up to the ministry leader" so she can pretty much say whatever she wants.
One of the founding families left shortly after this couple came on board...now we may lose another good family. I honestly do not see how our little church can survive with this sort of leadership in place but I don't know what can be done.
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/30/2008 10:37:31 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 380
Joined: 6/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wonder_Woman
This poor young woman was in tears and barely able to sing. She quit the choir immediately after the service. The funny thing was, they couldn't understand why people weren't lining up to join.
That is absolutely horrible and downright angers me. Someone responsible for that incident should have been spoken with.
Luke 17:2 "It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble..."
It's horrible if they were insensitive and coarse with her. If they were reasonable about it, sounds like she has maturity issues. Either way, you don't quit the choir after one service if your motive for joining was to serve God.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/30/2008 10:52:11 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10516
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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The dress code is not the issue (anywhere you work or go has some sort of dress code) - but the lack of clarity in the code is a big problem. It is not at all unreasonable to expect clarity - the lack of it is a morale killer and a quick way to kill a church or group. Personally, I would sit down with her and her husband and share what you have shared here - and the hurt that it is causing. You may even try to come up with an illustration that would help her see the issue from another angle (a recipe with no directions or something along those lines). It is not fair nor is it loving to have high expectations but not clue people in to what those expectations are. That's leadership 101.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 5:04:38 AM
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mvic
Posts: 1542
Joined: 1/17/2008
Status: online
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Peter Gunn: "One of the founding families left shortly after this couple came on board...now we may lose another good family. I honestly do not see how our little church can survive with this sort of leadership in place but I don't know what can be done."
It seems to me you'd be better off without any congregation at all. That way the elders and their assistants can run the church without bother or interruption from their flock!
Sarcasm aside; (and I hope you forgive me for making the point the way I have); surely the church is a place for people to go and pray and to worship God. To be lead and taught by the pastor, to be guided when they need to, and helped and consoled as required. It's a place of fellowship amongst loving Christians. It's a place you want to be in; a place you miss when you're away from.
It is not a place where we have to wear a uniform according to a dress code and to sign a contract before we can join the choir.
Maybe I'm old fashioned. Maybe I got it all wrong. But I can't find anywhere in the Bible Jesus asking His followers to sign a contract and follow a dress code.
_____________________________
Christian words of comfort at http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
Welcome to my Blog
MEI VITA INDICO CHRISTUS
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 8:22:34 AM
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revbob4God
Posts: 598
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
It's become obvious that this woman does not like this young girl, even though the rest of the worship team, the church leadership and the congregation think she's just wonderful. I'm wondering if the fact that the only other members of the worship team are men or the fact that this woman has a weight problem has anything to do with the situation. My daughter is only 13 and lovely but still looks like a little boy, while this other girl is 18 and lovely and looks like a young woman.
Now this young lady has quit the worship team and she and her family are very upset. I cannot blame her or them, but don't know what to do. This woman's husband is also an elder, so I cannot objectively discuss the situation with him. And I'm not clear as to whether to allow my daughter continue either. We've had our own problems at home, having to make her wear jackets and sweaters.
Oh, and I have to add this...it was suggested to this woman that she amend the wording in the "contract" to say "required" instead of "preferred". She does not like this idea and rejects it, stating that she's the coordinator and her call.
Do we have a little tyrant in this music coordinator? Is there something I'm missing? Do we just have to suck it up and get used to it?
Forgive the old preacher, late night of worship last night, Baptised three.
I see a serious problem here. Where is the pastor. Indeed, I do believe you DO have a tyrant on your hands. This answer has to touch on the deaf culture and deaf support culture. Over the years I have had several occasions to have deaf interpreters in larger congregations but frankly, some of the interpreters can be primadonnas. Not all, by any means. Interpreters have a long preparation priod and oft times, at the end of it, thy develop some rather dramatic traits. They provide a rather special service. (Get the general drift?)
Sounds like this coordinator is a tyrant. Sounds like you need to immediately get with the pastor and people need to address this woman and her obvious issues. You never want to disenfranchise the young ones when theyare willing to help. I see absolutely nothing wrong with the sleeveless shirt especially if you do not have air conditioning yet.
We all have to deal with the women tyrants in the church and this one could really make destruction for you, especially in an infant church. a call to the service of the deaf is a lifelong call and should e encouraged.
The tyrant will tell you interpreters need to dress down to draw less attention to themselves or give you any other excuse. This is NOT her show. get the woman in check because if you need the ministry, do not let her go any further with her monopoly. This will not be easy but it is a perfect example of a person who needs to take a moral inventory. She is not performing the responsibility of stewardship well. I wish you luck and will pray for you.
_____________________________
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I the Lord; and none else.
Isaiah 45:18
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 8:42:46 AM
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buckifn
Posts: 1802
Joined: 5/23/2006
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I would say the pastor needs to be contacted and asked to address this situation with all those involved.
It's ridiculous to say a lady cannot wear a sleeveless blouse because the men at church can't contain themselves. If I were a leader there the first thing I would call for is an altar service.
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 8:58:30 AM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4913
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
If the dress is modest and not inappropriate - the coordinator needs to be told by the church pastor/leaders to let it be.
Well, that's part of the problem. As I said, it's an infant church and there are only two elders...myself and the woman's husband...and we share the pastoring duties at this point. And this woman is one of our three deacons, as well.
So in your church, do the elders have authority over the deacons? If you are an elder, it sounds like you have some sort of say here, unless the other elder, the woman's husband, is also part of the problem? Is anyone actually in charge in your church?
_____________________________
<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 9:04:22 AM
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revbob4God
Posts: 598
Joined: 7/25/2008
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quote:
I would say the pastor needs to be contacted and asked to address this situation with all those involved.
It's ridiculous to say a lady cannot wear a sleeveless blouse because the men at church can't contain themselves. If I were a leader there the first thing I would call for is an altar service.
Amen, However I do not know how to copy paste multiple quotes yet but working on it. I would suggest that you have the altar service but before that, immediately call for a meeting with the offending woman's husband, then all of you approach the pastor, then, have an altar service, and finally, demand that this woman amend or even retract her dress code. She also may need to apologize to the young woman, and her family.
_____________________________
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I the Lord; and none else.
Isaiah 45:18
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 9:05:56 AM
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revbob4God
Posts: 598
Joined: 7/25/2008
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By the way time is of the essence, these things can quiickly get out of hand.
_____________________________
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I the Lord; and none else.
Isaiah 45:18
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 9:21:25 AM
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daisies4u
Posts: 193
Joined: 10/16/2006
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Have I missed something? The choir director doesn't want anyone to wear sleeveless. I don't see the big deal here. This seems like a very minor request. Granted, it should have been told to the girls ahead of time. It is impossible to address every dress issue in a policy. I can totally understand why the choir director would want to be able to use some discretion in deciding those things; as you cannot possibly address every issue. But really...not wearing a sleeveless blouse does not seem unreasonable.
The other thing is that being an interperter for the deaf is not the same thing as being in the choir. Being an interpreter...all eyes are on you, for the entire service. Being in the choir is different as all eyes are not focused on mainly you. At least they shouldn't be.
Unless this woman is unreasonable, you should be able to talk to her about this; letting her know that this young woman and her family is very upset. You don't want to cause strife or division in a new church and would she please go and speak to this young woman and ask her to come back with the understanding that she will not wear sleeveless clothing. If she says no, then you will know that you do have a tyrant on your hands. But a true Christian person would not want to cause division over something so minute.
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 9:25:25 AM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4913
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
Status: offline
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quote:
Have I missed something? The choir director doesn't want anyone to wear sleeveless. I don't see the big deal here. This seems like a very minor request. Granted, it should have been told to the girls ahead of time. It is impossible to address every dress issue in a policy. I can totally understand why the choir director would want to be able to use some discretion in deciding those things; as you cannot possibly address every issue. But really...not wearing a sleeveless blouse does not seem unreasonable.
The OP said the following:
quote:
The next Sunday the same girl wore a very nice outfit...skirt down to her ankles, with no slit and a short-sleeved top. Not low cut, either. The coordinator told her this was also inappropriate and that she must wear a jacket or sweater!
I think having to wear a jacket or sweater on a hot Sunday with no air conditioning is unreasonable.
_____________________________
<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 9:47:24 AM
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armydude
Posts: 16851
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
Do we have a little tyrant in this music coordinator? Is there something I'm missing? Do we just have to suck it up and get used to it?
Help?
A little tyrant? Does this music coordinator realize that she works for the church, not the other way around? If the church leadership backs her (the MC) up, then it's not the music coordinator. The best option would be to talk this over with the pastor. You may want to ask for an explanation as to why a dress code that is so strict is necessary in hot weather. Especially with a church with no a/c.
_____________________________
You can choose to be pitiful. Or you can choose to be powerful. But you cannot choose to be both.
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 9:59:45 AM
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revbob4God
Posts: 598
Joined: 7/25/2008
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quote:
A little tyrant? Does this music coordinator realize that she works for the church, not the other way around? If the church leadership backs her (the MC) up, then it's not the music coordinator. The best option would be to talk this over with the pastor. You may want to ask for an explanation as to why a dress code that is so strict is necessary in hot weather. Especially with a church with no a/c.
Amen.
_____________________________
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I the Lord; and none else.
Isaiah 45:18
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 10:01:41 AM
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revbob4God
Posts: 598
Joined: 7/25/2008
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quote:
I think having to wear a jacket or sweater on a hot Sunday with no air conditioning is unreasonable.
Amen
_____________________________
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I the Lord; and none else.
Isaiah 45:18
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 10:02:19 AM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4913
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
Status: offline
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The OP said they didn't have a pastor.
_____________________________
<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 10:05:02 AM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11462
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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Folks - from what I read, THERE IS NO PASTOR.
There are two elders (one of which is the OP, the other the husband of the MC) who share the pastoring duties.
What advice would you give in this situation if there is no pastor?
_____________________________
Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 10:10:41 AM
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revbob4God
Posts: 598
Joined: 7/25/2008
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quote:
Folks - from what I read, THERE IS NO PASTOR.
There are two elders (one of which is the OP, the other the husband of the MC) who share the pastoring duties.
What advice would you give in this situation if there is no pastor?
My first advice would be for the elders to ask a Pastor. It seems there is a need for Leadership.
As a Pastor, I believe that the Choir Director needs to receive counsel. This appears to be an infant church. Without true leadership, there is concern that the church may fail. If there is an acting Pastor, He needs to be immediately consulted. If there is no immediate Pastor, then the priority should be to address the issues at hand with the choir director, and begin a search for a permanent Pastor.
Perhaps this thread should be directed to an area where Pastors can respond.
_____________________________
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I the Lord; and none else.
Isaiah 45:18
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However, one young lady joined and was not aware of this unofficial dress code, and was informed less than two minutes before we went out to sing that she would have to be in the back so it wasn't obvious that she was wearing slacks. This poor young woman was in tears and barely able to sing. She quit the choir immediately after the service. The funny thing was, they couldn't understand why people weren't lining up to join. 
The immaturity and things people come up with. They need to get a hobby or find something better to do with their time.
