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RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue - 7/28/2008 1:59:27 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5693
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
yes, a board member followed him.
we had people that were at the end of the rope with this guy.
So if the Board member had a problem, why not have the fortitude to sit the Pastor down and ask him about why he did such an obsurd thing as attend his son's soccer game?
Instead the Board menber follows and spies on him and then gossips what he said he say to the congregation?
This is just a disaster waiting to happen, and it seems most of the problem may lay with the ineptatude fo the Board.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue - 7/28/2008 2:08:27 PM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
yes, a board member followed him.
we had people that were at the end of the rope with this guy.
So if the Board member had a problem, why not have the fortitude to sit the Pastor down and ask him about why he did such an obsurd thing as attend his son's soccer game?
Instead the Board member follows and spies on him and then gossips what he said he say to the congregation?
This is just a disaster waiting to happen, and it seems most of the problem may lay with the ineptatude fo the Board.
Thanks
RC
That is not the way it happened. The board talked in detail to the pastor about his time accountability. Two board members went to him one on one to talk with him about it. By the time he began disappearing from services, things had progressed to the point the Superintendent had been called. The board member followed him after he had left early from three or four services, and this particular time saw himheading for his car.
If anything, the board was overly patient with this man. Things went on long than it should have.
And he did not gossip about it. He talked to the pastor and his wife, and told him he would report it to the church board as well as the Superintendent. . Only those of us on the board at the time were aware of what was happening with the soccer games, and only after it had gone on for about a month.
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I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue - 7/28/2008 3:11:23 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5693
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
That is not the way it happened. The board talked in detail to the pastor about his time accountability. Two board members went to him one on one to talk with him about it. By the time he began disappearing from services, things had progressed to the point the Superintendent had been called. The board member followed him after he had left early from three or four services, and this particular time saw himheading for his car.
If anything, the board was overly patient with this man. Things went on long than it should have.
And he did not gossip about it. He talked to the pastor and his wife, and told him he would report it to the church board as well as the Superintendent. . Only those of us on the board at the time were aware of what was happening with the soccer games, and only after it had gone on for about a month.
If there was no gossip about all this; then how do you know so much about the meetings and what transpired between the board and the Pastor.
I just really think there is more to this that has been posted.
If the Pastor is not doing his dutines then the board should remove him or put him on temporary leave, o something that shows rank and file true leadership.
If the board does not have this authority then it needs to be referred to either the denomination or the congragation for a no confidence vote.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue - 7/28/2008 8:58:30 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3644
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From: a mother who let me live
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RC, I understand, to a point, the frustration Blue must have had. The organization I was in was similar, only no church in the organization was allowed to have its own board, no church had any authority whatsoever, the pastor could do whatever he pleased, and we had to keep our mouths shut. We, the people who paid them their wages, were completely powerless, except through gossip -- the only power available other than the pastors and outside of the headquarters' own board, which made our decisions long-distance, based upon the pastors' hearsay.
Their headquarters moved the pastors about at will every four or so years, no matter what the congregations' needs and wishes were. Headquarters had their agenda, and we mattered not one iota. Everything was about the employment and inherent power of the pastors.
One such pastor informed me, in front of the young peoples' group, that there was nothing wrong with abortion, and when I began to quote Scripture at him while in a shocked, quiet rage, he walked out of his living room to go pout -- his usual manner of dealing with anything. The same pastor knocked a Sunday school child heavily on the head with a hymnal, and I was deemed a trouble-maker for confronting his action. And I have mentioned the pastor who kissed me inappropriately when I was a teenager as well as the one who specifically and forcibly touched my chest not long after I was widowed. My last pastor there bragged about how he cheated people in his business.
In these types of churches, pastors are all-powerful, and we who paid their wages are nothing but worker-ants. Keep coming, keep doing the work, and hand over the dough. And if you don't do what I say, you are going to hell with your children. They had the power of our eternal lives in their hands -- or so we were strongly taught. They were the one and only perfect church, and all others were far lesser.
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"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue - 7/29/2008 3:14:17 AM
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cwb
Posts: 208
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From: Eastern NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
quote:
The minister is a spiritual chef. He takes the raw ingredients - the Word, and he then assembles selected text to make a spiritual 'dish'.
That sounds really good, Chuck, but unless the pastor is called by God, the ingredients are less than pure...
Hi Ps103...
If the pastor doesn't have a ministerial calling, I think I'd still equate him to an army cook - probably doesn't much care, maybe not very good either, but the food would still sustain the Spirit, although not build/edify.
And I suppose it could somehow be twisted and cooked such that it was ... [?] ... bad....................... Even then, wouldn't only a spiritual 'babe' be susceptible?
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RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue - 7/29/2008 7:36:23 AM
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revbob4God
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quote:
sacrificing chickens on the pulpit I have to agree with rc James. In that particular case, I would suggest you leave also. By the way, what dnomination is that? Sounds a little wacky, if you ask me.
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RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue - 7/29/2008 8:35:54 AM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
I was on the board. 
and there is not more to the story than what I have told, other than more examples of this man not doing his job, and the fact that he had similar problems at other churches he had pastored, and the denominational leadership did not inform us.
We could not bring a pastor up for a no confidence vote without permission of the Superintendant, and then only after a review that is conducted every four years. So we had two years to go before we could do that.
So you are telling me that the Pastor could be having an affaire with some of the women, sacrificing chickens on the pulpit, raiding the treasury; and one would have to wait for two years.
If that is truely the case I would suggest you leave quickly, not because of the problems with the present Pastor, but with the potential problems with any Pastor.
What denomination is this?
Thsnks
RC
If it were a case of sin, adultry, etc. the man would be removed by the denomination as soon as proof was shown. In other cases, pastors go though a pastoral review every four years, and can be brought up for a recall vote then. By the way, I have been very specific that this thread was NOT ABOUT SIN, BUT ABOUT INCOMPETENCE. Please try to stay on topic.
I have not given the name of the denomination, since there are people here who are in the denomination, and I don't want a brawl to break out among them. And I did leave that particular denomination. This situtaion happened a couple of years ago.
The pastor eventually resigned, and is now at another church. I am sure they were not informed problems at his past churches.
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I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue - 7/29/2008 9:16:11 AM
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jn1010lf
Posts: 331
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Hello bluestone
Has anyone in your church thought about praying for this man that is judeged as being incompetent?
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RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue - 7/29/2008 9:20:49 AM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
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From: United States of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jn1010lf
Hello bluestone
Has anyone in your church thought about praying for this man that is judeged as being incompetent?
of course. Lots of prayer went up for the man. And before anyone gets off on a "Judging" kick, please read the entire thread, and see that this was proven incompetence.
The point of this entire thread being: How does your church or denomination deal with incompetence in the pulpit. Not sin, not the mean old judging congregation.
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I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue - 7/29/2008 11:21:42 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5693
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
of course. Lots of prayer went up for the man. And before anyone gets off on a "Judging" kick, please read the entire thread, and see that this was proven incompetence.
I would sorta disagree that this was "Proven" incompetence. Maybe incomopetence in the eyes of some.
But I do read a lot of gossip, inuendo, etc. into the aciton of the Board and the members who did not like the Pastor.
We can certainly disagree over this, but I have had a lot of experience in this area and I sense a lot of "He did; not do it my way, so he is wrong" actions going on.
I think it is a great idea to let lay folks lead some of the services and stay out uf the pulpit while it is happening.
I also think the Pastor should should support his children's activities. I would have announced to the Chruch that I was going to the game if I was going to miss, but that is just me.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue - 7/29/2008 11:27:07 AM
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bluestone
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we will have to agree to disagree, RC.
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RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue - 7/29/2008 11:28:43 AM
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Ps103
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RC--quick question: have you ever forgotten to go to a wedding you were officiating?
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RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue - 7/29/2008 11:52:37 AM
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crankius
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It sounds like he was more than just "not doing it my way"--it sounds like he lacked one of the primary Biblical qualifications for being an elder--a desire to shepherd the people eagerly and willingly. The fact that he had a previous pattern of problems also indicates that he had a reputation for not serving appropriately as a qualified elder.
According to bluestone, he was already being approached one-on-one by the board members, and then was involved with discussions with all the board members about his behavior, and then was still having problems sticking with his commitments to the church.
From what bluestone has told us, the church did not gossip but handled it in the Biblical manner.
His behavior wasn't hidden--his behavior was going to build a reputation. Discussing his behavior was not gossip when it was being discussed by those directly involved and responsible for the leadership, and when it followed the Biblical procedure.
Remember, it was Chloe's household that informed Paul of the issues going on in the Corinthian church. Without people being willing to discuss the actual issues going on, Paul would not have known and would not have written to them to address the problems.
When problems arise, people will discuss them--good leadership during conflict helps to stop true gossip by addressing issues head on and in the Biblical manner.
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Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue - 7/29/2008 12:38:38 PM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
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thanks, Crankius. You explained it far better than I have been able to.
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I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue - 8/29/2008 2:27:47 PM
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pianofirstlady
Posts: 13
Joined: 8/18/2008
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quote:
My denomination does not allow us to "check out" potential pastors. The superintendent will bring a candidate to interview and preach a mini sermon. you choose him or loose him, and if you let him go, it may be a while before another is brought your way.
incompetence in this case was a guy who :
was late for morning services. constantly. Music director kept everyone singing until he rushed in the back door and zoomed up the isle to the pulpit. He told the board he is not a "Morning person"
cancelled Sunrise services, New Year's watch night services, etc. due to his dislike of early or late services. He and his family need a lot or rest, he said.
decided to have laypeople lead Wed. night services in the spring. He always sat in the back and seemed to disappear. Someone followed him. He was leaving after the service started to go attend his kid's soccer games.
NEVER was at the office, and would not tell the secretary where he was going. Turned out it was the golf course, and back home for a nap.
Did not show up for a wedding his was officiating at. He said he forgot. Although he was at the rehearsal dinner the night before. Another preacher was a guest, and wound up doing the service.
Late for two funerals.
Blatantly refused to do hospital visitation. He may catch something and bring it home to his family.
bluestone: I have 5 words to say: UN - BE - LIE- VA - BLE!!! (Five syllables, I know...just wanna straighten that out before somebody lights into me.) You have got to be kidding! Not to make light of the situation, but I couldn't read thru this without crackin' up!! The Rev. obviously has/had some accountability and responsibility issues, but these violations are are beyond my imagination. I pray things have gotten better for him and this church.
quote:
I have to admit I am quite shocked and humored by the content I am reading here. Aren't we supposed to pray for our church leaders? But what I am reading is that if you talk about the leadership this way, my goodness, how might you talk about Mrs. Rosie who takes to the bottle on the weekends and needs prayer. I am left to wonder why a leader would be made to look very pitiful in public forum and actually raises the question for me on whether or not we might be praying fervernetly for him, instead of complaning and gossiping about him.
lrenee, with all due respect, according to bluestone's post, they WERE praying for this pastor. And I don't see where bluestone has put anybody on "Front Street" here. Sure, it's a public forum, but the anonymity of this "community" is what frees us to share the kind of thoughts we might not otherwise be able to share among fellow church members. Would bluestone have been better off to take this same vent to the pastor's face?!?! We all know the answer to that.
quote:
I have always regarded those in the position of pastor with the utmost respect as my father was a pastor and so is my uncle.
It's obvious that you have the "pulse" of the pastors, what with so many of them in your family. That's all well and good. I'm a 2nd generation PK on both sides of my family (paternal and maternal grandfathers were preachers), my father is a minister and now I'm engaged to a pastor. I too regard "those in the position of pastor with the utmost respect." But this does not negate a pastor's need to be responsible, accountable and faithful to his calling. Family or not. If that were my husband, I'd find a loving way to convey to him that he needed to "tighten up!" The same way I always tell my fiance that if I ever play a song during service and jack it up, don't hesitate to tell me "Baby don't play that no more until you get it together." Or however he wants to word it. I'm a big girl, and I want him to be straight with me and me to be able to be straight with him.
There is absolutely no excuse for the irresponsibility in the things bluestone listed above. For Heaven's sake, if the man was having time management issues, unable to get adequate rest, etc., the responsible thing for him to do would be to SPEAK UP and ask for help. Convey to the church what he could handle and what he couldn't. When he could be available and when he couldn't. A smart preacher even knows when to take a break from the ministry. Church workers (from the pastorate all the way down) are highly susceptible to burn out, just like any other field. Probably even more so. If a pastor has led effectively, there are usually several ministers and/or spiritually mature lay people who can step in to help when he might need to "regroup" or go get some training...or get away to fast and pray. Or whatever!!!
God also has the utmost respect for the pastorate. Whether pastors are held to higher standards that other disciples of Christ is argued in many circles, but I certain believe the scriptures suggest that they are.
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RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue - 8/29/2008 5:54:04 PM
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Kath
Posts: 17140
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It seems I need to post portions of our Terms of Service, as it is being ignored with some of the posts.
It is against our Terms of Service to questions the motives of our members. It is against our Terms of Service to accuse members of gossip.
TOS 6- Attacking the character or motives of someone who differs with your view is unacceptable.
TOS 9. You will not disrupt the normal flow of dialog in the community or act in a manner that negatively affects other members, including and perhaps especially in the defense of Christianity, in offering unwelcome spiritual counsel, or in debating doctrinal issues.
Sincerely
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RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue - 8/29/2008 6:11:10 PM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1055
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I'm thinking that this particular style of "incompetence" is sin. It is dishonest to accept the duties of a position (saying you will do them) and then not do them.
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RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue - 8/30/2008 10:02:20 PM
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lightshineon
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I would much rather have this kind of pastor, than one who lies and manipulates.
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F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue - 9/28/2008 9:22:14 AM
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Marksman
Posts: 269
Joined: 6/7/2007
From: Drouin, Victoria, Australia
Status: offline
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quote:
How does your church or denomination handle pastors who are incompetent or perhaps just lazy?
If ever I wanted evidence that the appointing of a pastor from outside the fellowship was not scriptual I would use the comments here.
You will not find one instance in the NT church of a person being invited from outside the local congregation to lead it. The reason that you get all these problems is due to the fact that the church is doing something contrary to scripture.
Follow the teaching of scripture and you will find that the pattern is to appoint a plurality of unpaid elders who grew up with the local congregation to oversee it. There are at least 17 verses to this affect and only one that mentions the word pastor (poimen) and it is not spoken of in terms of the leadership of the local assembly. If you want to see the whole exegesis go to my website http://churchalive66.googlepages.com
Apart from anything else you will see what a disaster appointing an unscriptual paid pastor from out of town is, based on solid research.
Having been in leadership on several occasions, the one model that has been the least problematic has been the plurality of elders model. Then, that doesn't surprise me as it is scriptual.
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God Bless America
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RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue - 9/28/2008 11:34:17 AM
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bzirk
Posts: 2909
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marksman
quote:
How does your church or denomination handle pastors who are incompetent or perhaps just lazy?
If ever I wanted evidence that the appointing of a pastor from outside the fellowship was not scriptual I would use the comments here.
You will not find one instance in the NT church of a person being invited from outside the local congregation to lead it. The reason that you get all these problems is due to the fact that the church is doing something contrary to scripture.
Follow the teaching of scripture and you will find that the pattern is to appoint a plurality of unpaid elders who grew up with the local congregation to oversee it. There are at least 17 verses to this affect and only one that mentions the word pastor (poimen) and it is not spoken of in terms of the leadership of the local assembly. If you want to see the whole exegesis go to my website http://churchalive66.googlepages.com
Apart from anything else you will see what a disaster appointing an unscriptual paid pastor from out of town is, based on solid research.
Having been in leadership on several occasions, the one model that has been the least problematic has been the plurality of elders model. Then, that doesn't surprise me as it is scriptual.
The plurality of elders is definitely the scriptual church government. But as part of that it is possible for the appointment of an elder from outside a particular body. If the individual meets the criteria for an elder, there should be no problem for the simple reason that nowhere does it say an elder should have lived with a group of people for a period of time before becoming an elder. If they are reasonably sure that he meets the qualifications, then that's sufficient. Is there more assurance if someone is from the "inside" the body? Maybe or maybe not. I've seen people pick a person from their body only to find out they had problems as well. So whether someone is from "inside" a body is not the issue, and again, it is not specificied in scripture as a requirement for someone to become an elder in a body.
And how do you know that someone was never invited from outside a body to become an elder? It is not specified in scripture. You are creating an extra-Biblical requirement.
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may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: When incompetent leaders are allowed to continue - 9/28/2008 8:52:08 PM
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Marksman
Posts: 269
Joined: 6/7/2007
From: Drouin, Victoria, Australia
Status: offline
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quote:
But as part of that it is possible for the appointment of an elder from outside a particular body.
Can you show me in scripture where this happened please? if you can't it is mere conjecture on your part.
quote:
nowhere does it say an elder should have lived with a group of people for a period of time before becoming an elder.
If you go to my website you will see that elders were only ever appointed from within the congregation they were part of.
quote:
I've seen people pick a person from their body only to find out they had problems as well.
Uisng one person as an example is like making a doctrine out of one verse of scripture.
quote:
And how do you know that someone was never invited from outside a body to become an elder? It is not specified in scripture.
I know for the simple reason that I have spent 12 months studying NT church leadership, mainly in the orginal greek and consulted over 40 other authors who have written on the subject. I realise that some people believe that if the 40 authors disagree with what they believe, all 40 authors are wrong, but I prefer to go with a body of evidence from those who have studied the scriptures in depth.
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