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Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? - 6/23/2008 12:20:15 PM
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galadriel2
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I was watching a wee bit of the Chris Matthews Show on Sunday and he was 'opinionating' that we can be proud of America because two political rivals sat as good friends together at the funeral of Tim Russert - that we can express opposing views without fear of animosity - this is what makes us proud, what makes America great. I think I somewhat disagree with Chris on this one. What makes me love America and be proud of her is why she was founded - though we have drifted very far from this in most areas of our society by now. We were founded by a group of people who had come out of centuries of religious persecution. They were seeking to establish a country - a Beulah land - if you will - where God in Christ could be worshiped and served freely according to the dictates of one's own conscience. This is what is so unique about America and what is/was so great about her. We are losing this, of course, now, but I still love America for what she still has some remnants of and what she was founded for.
God bless all,
Galadriel2
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RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? - 6/23/2008 5:10:16 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1984
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quote:
ORIGINAL: galadriel2
I was watching a wee bit of the Chris Matthews Show on Sunday and he was 'opinionating' that we can be proud of America because two political rivals sat as good friends together at the funeral of Tim Russert - that we can express opposing views without fear of animosity - this is what makes us proud, what makes America great. I think I somewhat disagree with Chris on this one. What makes me love America and be proud of her is why she was founded - though we have drifted very far from this in most areas of our society by now. We were founded by a group of people who had come out of centuries of religious persecution. They were seeking to establish a country - a Beulah land - if you will - where God in Christ could be worshiped and served freely according to the dictates of one's own conscience. This is what is so unique about America and what is/was so great about her. We are losing this, of course, now, but I still love America for what she still has some remnants of and what she was founded for.
God bless all,
Galadriel2
Well, there are a lot of very Christian countries thoughout history. One that comes to mind in particular is Geneva under Calvin; Calvin ordered credobaptists- that is, those who are against infant baptism burnt at the stake.
Calvin arguably practiced the same kind of Christianity as the Puritans, so I'm not sure that freedom to worship God necessarily captures all of what's special about America.
I think that what's special about America is that you have both JWs and devout Baptists, Evangelicals and Atheists, Jews and Muslims all able to get along and live in relative peace. It's a country where you have marked contrasts in beliefs that people hold very dearly, and yet everyone can still get along ok.
It appears that for the most part, America is having "difficulty" entering the postmodern era that some European countries appear to be entering. We want to stay in the age of the Enlightenment and Modernism- where people agree there is an absolute truth (even if they can't agree on what it is). I think the rift between the US and Western Europe has probably been pretty apparent for at least the past few decades, and I'm under the impression that we might keep Modernism for a long time.
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RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? - 6/23/2008 5:19:22 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1100
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: galadriel2
I was watching a wee bit of the Chris Matthews Show on Sunday and he was 'opinionating' that we can be proud of America because two political rivals sat as good friends together at the funeral of Tim Russert - that we can express opposing views without fear of animosity - this is what makes us proud, what makes America great. I think I somewhat disagree with Chris on this one. What makes me love America and be proud of her is why she was founded - though we have drifted very far from this in most areas of our society by now. We were founded by a group of people who had come out of centuries of religious persecution. They were seeking to establish a country - a Beulah land - if you will - where God in Christ could be worshiped and served freely according to the dictates of one's own conscience. This is what is so unique about America and what is/was so great about her. We are losing this, of course, now, but I still love America for what she still has some remnants of and what she was founded for.
God bless all,
Galadriel2
Well, there are a lot of very Christian countries thoughout history. One that comes to mind in particular is Geneva under Calvin; Calvin ordered credobaptists- that is, those who are against infant baptism burnt at the stake.
Calvin arguably practiced the same kind of Christianity as the Puritans, so I'm not sure that freedom to worship God necessarily captures all of what's special about America.
I think that what's special about America is that you have both JWs and devout Baptists, Evangelicals and Atheists, Jews and Muslims all able to get along and live in relative peace. It's a country where you have marked contrasts in beliefs that people hold very dearly, and yet everyone can still get along ok.
It appears that for the most part, America is having "difficulty" entering the postmodern era that some European countries appear to be entering. We want to stay in the age of the Enlightenment and Modernism- where people agree there is an absolute truth (even if they can't agree on what it is). I think the rift between the US and Western Europe has probably been pretty apparent for at least the past few decades, and I'm under the impression that we might keep Modernism for a long time.
I wish people would study factual history instead of making unwarented and unfactual comments like this.
Here are some FACTS. In Geneva at the time that John Calvin was there, only ONE person was put to death for religious reasons. That was the heretic Michael Servetus. Calvin even tried to get a more humane form of punishment for Servetus (beheading) but that sugjestion was rejected by the Geneva council.
Again, while there were plenty of death penalty cases handed out, John Calvin himself never ordered ANYONES death, nor, during the time Calvin was there, were any one other than Servetus killed for religious reasons. IE NO Credobaptists were killed during Calvin's time in Geneva.
Moral of the story there NYC? You fail at history!
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RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? - 6/23/2008 5:44:02 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1984
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Here are some FACTS. In Geneva at the time that John Calvin was there, only ONE person was put to death for religious reasons. That was the heretic Michael Servetus. Calvin even tried to get a more humane form of punishment for Servetus (beheading) but that sugjestion was rejected by the Geneva council.
Again, while there were plenty of death penalty cases handed out, John Calvin himself never ordered ANYONES death, nor, during the time Calvin was there, were any one other than Servetus killed for religious reasons. IE NO Credobaptists were killed during Calvin's time in Geneva.
Moral of the story there NYC? You fail at history!
Apparently, Steph, some of your facts are wrong as well. You missed the tragedy of James Gruet, who was put on the rack twice a day twice a day for a month until his execution for dissenting against Calvin.
In addition, Calvin also wrote letters to various monarchs, including King Henry VIII recommending that Anabaptists be burnt at the stake, claiming "It is far better for two or three be burned than thousands perish in Hell."
About Servetus, you also left out the fact that he wrote in the Treatise "Against the Errors of Servetus", "Many people have accused me of such ferocious cruelty that (they allege) I would like to kill again the man I have destroyed. Not only am I indifferent to their comments, but I rejoice in the fact that they spit in my face."
In 1546, Calvin also wrote to his friend Farel about Servetus: "If he comes here, if my authority is worth anything, I will never permit him to depart alive."
http://www.freewill-predestination.com/golden.html
I'm not trying to attack any theologians. Calvin was a smart guy when it came to the interpreting the Bible. I'm just trying to provide the factual basis for the view that Zurich under Calvin didn't exactly enjoy the same freedoms that most Americans enjoy.
So I at least get a C at history. Calvin may have been a little meaner to Servetus than you claim, Servetus certainly wasn't the only heretic Calvin killed, and he advocated for the capital punishment of credobaptists throughout protestant Europe.
Moral of the Story: If the Puritans had Calvin as their leader and they controlled the US, the Southern Baptist Church and the Evangelical revival probably wouldn't exist.
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 6/23/2008 5:54:19 PM >
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RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? - 6/23/2008 6:09:40 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 283
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
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I'm fairly certain that there were some pretty strict limits on freedom of religion in the Puritan colonies, too.
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RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? - 6/23/2008 6:13:49 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1984
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
I'm fairly certain that there were some pretty strict limits on freedom of religion in the Puritan colonies, too.
Let's just say that Wicca wasn't exactly the healthiest religion to be practicing in Salem in the late 1600s.
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RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? - 6/23/2008 6:44:43 PM
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EStan
Posts: 451
Joined: 7/27/2005
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quote:
Why Is America Something to be Proud Of?
Because no other country in the world offers as much opportunity to as many.
_____________________________
Eternal Father, grant that through the tears of repentance I may see more clearly the brightness and glories of the saving cross.
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RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? - 6/23/2008 7:03:53 PM
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ElmerFishpaw
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No country exists which is called "America" We live in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ...there is no "America" except for North America and South America..but it's in common use so... what the hey.....
I love my country for the Constitution, it evens things out and bad leaders are weeded out or eventually end their terms. Your country is HOME....that is the main thing to me.
I get upset a few things....People say we are the best in the world. I think there is no "best" country in the world. My favorite is here as it's HOME. To crow "we are the best" is prideful and insulting to others...those in Australia,Canada (next door to me) Denmark and even Albania feel they are #1 too. They love where they are as much as we do here.
I don't like how we assume we can't learn from other nations. It really got me upset when after 9/11, everyone was too chicken to fly or spend money, and hunkered down to CNN and just to make it look good put out a Chinese made US flag on the porch but never spent the money to get things going. We are a very free country but others are just as much. We are awesome, I wouldn't live anywhere else. It's home and it's in the very top tier of great places.
So what is the USA.....a geo political nation or a moral civilization?
< Message edited by ElmerFishpaw -- 6/23/2008 7:11:17 PM >
_____________________________
"Aurora Borealis is Latin for flying saucer headlights"
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RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? - 6/23/2008 7:40:39 PM
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rnershigh
Posts: 1189
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: somewhere over the rainbow
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I don't think it's boastful or arrogant to consider your country the "Best" country in the world.
It's subjective, sure, but like you said everyone thinks that.
Having lived in another country for 2 years (twice, for a total of 4 years) I can say, IMO (just my opinion here) that the U.S. is the best country to be living in.
Having lived in another country, I see how much we Americans take for granted.
All that we have, all that we do, EVERYTHING about our country is soooo much better than a lot of countries out there.
You don't realize it until you've lived in another country how good we really do have it here.
We are so blessed.
Like someone else stated, what makes this country great is the fact it allows anyone to reach their potential with enough hard work and determination.
The opportunities are there, you just have to want it bad enough.
Sure, there are a lot of flaws in the U.S. and we are a flawed people, but I think what makes this country great outweigh such negativties that so many like to focus on.
Another great thing about this country are the people.
The generous and friendliness of Americans, their willingness to help a stranger in need.
The drive to always improve and better ourselves, to help make our country a better place to live and work in.
_____________________________
O Grave! where is thy Victory?
O Death! where is thy Sting?
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RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? - 6/23/2008 9:05:33 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3377
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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If...any country is something to be proud of...we can be proud of america because we examine ourselves. We have the freedom to fail in this country. We invite debate.
We are a free country with many faults because..we are a country with people in it. This will only change when Jesus comes back.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? - 6/23/2008 10:18:59 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
Status: offline
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Your kidding right?
I'm proud my forebears slaughtered some Natives to get this land.
I'm proud that Africans built it up, with over 300 years of free labor.
I'm proud we have 600 serial killers running loose.
I'm proud we are killing innocents in Iraq and elsewhere.
I'm proud we are making everything in China.
I'm proud of the fence we are building to keep our "Neighbors" out.
I'm proud of the way we handled Katrina.
I'm proud we have abortion pay on demand
I'm proud we are letting gays getting married.
I'm proud our education system is like 28th in the world.
I'm proud we spend more on petfood than AID to other countires.
I'm proud I can wear diamonds stolen from South AFrica.
I'm especilly proud that other counties are jealous of us.
WE are such good people, the world should want to copy us.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? - 6/23/2008 10:26:15 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 779
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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Wheeeeeew! 
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RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? - 6/23/2008 11:04:31 PM
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Leon_Figg3
Posts: 475
Joined: 4/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Your kidding right?
I'm proud my forebears slaughtered some Natives to get this land.
I'm proud that Africans built it up, with over 300 years of free labor.
I'm proud we have 600 serial killers running loose.
I'm proud we are killing innocents in Iraq and elsewhere.
I'm proud we are making everything in China.
I'm proud of the fence we are building to keep our "Neighbors" out.
I'm proud of the way we handled Katrina.
I'm proud we have abortion pay on demand
I'm proud we are letting gays getting married.
I'm proud our education system is like 28th in the world.
I'm proud we spend more on petfood than AID to other countires.
I'm proud I can wear diamonds stolen from South AFrica.
I'm especilly proud that other counties are jealous of us.
WE are such good people, the world should want to copy us.
tracydolls,
The USA is a country to be proud of for a numer of reasons.
1. As stated, this is a country of flawed people from all over the world. We have made mistakes and have learned from them, to some degree or other.
2. It allows people to dwell on the past and make highly emotional and inaccurate blanket statements about the country based on the actions and decisons of a handful of people.
3. It allows people to judge society and events of the past by the standards of today, at the same time fail to acknowledge the conditions, and thinking of the time.
Yes, what happened to "Native Americans" was terrible, but ask yourself how things could have happened any differently.
Yes, the form of slavery that existed in this country, as well as the racial struggles that resulted from it were and are terrible. The fact is that throughout the history of our country not all people were in support of it, as certain self appointed champions and marketeers of racial hatred profess it as being. From the birth of our country slavery was seen as a necessary evil that would eventually become unneccesary and rmembered as an evil that had been overcome.
I will not go any further in your list because to do so would turn this discussion into a complicated, headache producing mess as to exactly what would make us the perfect government-the perfect country.
From the list of evils you sighted it seems that you see the answer to the perfect country, the perfect governemt, in dictatorship, or theocracy. Fortuneately our for-fathers did not agree with you when forming this country. They had already seen the evils of dicatorships and theocracies. They, like our spiritual forefathers saw that the answer lay in the gift of free-will that God gave each of us.
We can either work for our own self interests or build relationships and through trial and error learn to work together for everyone's good.
_____________________________
To whom much is given, much is expected. Luke 12:48
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RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? - 6/23/2008 11:18:35 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 626
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: galadriel2
I was watching a wee bit of the Chris Matthews Show on Sunday and he was 'opinionating' that we can be proud of America because two political rivals sat as good friends together at the funeral of Tim Russert - that we can express opposing views without fear of animosity - this is what makes us proud, what makes America great. I think I somewhat disagree with Chris on this one. What makes me love America and be proud of her is why she was founded - though we have drifted very far from this in most areas of our society by now. We were founded by a group of people who had come out of centuries of religious persecution. They were seeking to establish a country - a Beulah land - if you will - where God in Christ could be worshiped and served freely according to the dictates of one's own conscience. This is what is so unique about America and what is/was so great about her. We are losing this, of course, now, but I still love America for what she still has some remnants of and what she was founded for.
God bless all,
Galadriel2
Galadriel2, you said it well, i couldn't agree with you more.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? - 6/23/2008 11:34:22 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
Status: offline
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My home is in Heaven. I'm a soujouner here. I happened to be born in America.
Pride? Proud?
Job 41:34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.
Psa 40:4 Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.
Where did I lie?
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? - 6/24/2008 12:29:39 AM
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Leon_Figg3
Posts: 475
Joined: 4/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
My home is in Heaven. I'm a soujouner here. I happened to be born in America.
Pride? Proud?
Job 41:34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.
Psa 40:4 Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.
Where did I lie?
Who said you did?
_____________________________
To whom much is given, much is expected. Luke 12:48
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RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? - 6/24/2008 8:11:42 AM
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rnershigh
Posts: 1189
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: somewhere over the rainbow
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Your kidding right?
I'm proud my forebears slaughtered some Natives to get this land.
I'm proud that Africans built it up, with over 300 years of free labor.
I'm proud we have 600 serial killers running loose.
I'm proud we are killing innocents in Iraq and elsewhere.
I'm proud we are making everything in China.
I'm proud of the fence we are building to keep our "Neighbors" out.
I'm proud of the way we handled Katrina.
I'm proud we have abortion pay on demand
I'm proud we are letting gays getting married.
I'm proud our education system is like 28th in the world.
I'm proud we spend more on petfood than AID to other countires.
I'm proud I can wear diamonds stolen from South AFrica.
I'm especilly proud that other counties are jealous of us.
WE are such good people, the world should want to copy us.
I'm not surprised you said this.
It's your MO.
If you can't see the good about this country and its people, and harbor such bitterness inside....all I can say is I feel sorry for you.
< Message edited by rnershigh -- 6/24/2008 8:17:45 AM >
_____________________________
O Grave! where is thy Victory?
O Death! where is thy Sting?
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RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? - 6/24/2008 10:26:03 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1984
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rnershigh
I'm not surprised you said this.
It's your MO.
If you can't see the good about this country and its people, and harbor such bitterness inside....all I can say is I feel sorry for you.
Are we done with the ad-hominems?
quote:
My home is in Heaven. I'm a soujouner here. I happened to be born in America.
Pride? Proud?
Job 41:34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.
Psa 40:4 Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.
Where did I lie?
Every country is flawed, but I don't think the US is much more flawed than other countries.
Much of what the US did while it was independant from Britain was better than what the British actually did. And that certainly beats the actions of the Spanish.
Many non-European countries have also had their faults. Stalin, Mao, and the Khmer Rouge are responsible for the deaths of perhaps 150 million people combined. This exceeds the original native populations of North and South America by about a factor of six. Aside from possibly Stalin, all of these people/groups were in charge of non-European countries.
And don't get me started about Zimbabwe, Congo, or many other nations that don't have as many people but have many more problems.
So, we're broken people living in a broken world and a broken country, but the one thing that makes the US special is that the government's brokenness doesn't have to permeate every part of our lives.
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RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? - 6/24/2008 11:29:58 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
I'm not surprised you said this.
It's your MO.
If you can't see the good about this country and its people, and harbor such bitterness inside....all I can say is I feel sorry for you.
I feel sorry for this country and it's people. Especially the Christians!~
Why do ya'll consider it bitterness or anger to TELL THE TRUTH?
Blessedinnyc:
I'm not saying other countries are better. Are you kidding me?
This is a flawed world and as Christians we should be able to tell the truth about it.
Psa 40:4 Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? - 6/24/2008 11:46:07 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1984
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
I feel sorry for this country and it's people. Especially the Christians!~
Why do ya'll consider it bitterness or anger to TELL THE TRUTH?
Don't worry about him. He seems very bitter about your supposed bitterness, but that's another story.
quote:
I'm not saying other countries are better. Are you kidding me?
This is a flawed world and as Christians we should be able to tell the truth about it.
Well, I think it's ok for people to be proud of their country. The US is a very special place; it's rare to find a country that respects civil liberties the way the US does.
It's all right to smile to yourself and say, "Yeah right. This is a broken country, too," but I don't think we necessarily have to rain on other peoples' nationalist parades- at least until they start calling people anti-American.
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RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? - 6/24/2008 11:52:15 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
tracydolls, so what is keeping you here? If America is so distasteful to you, why not move? In your opinion, which countries are better?
Just curious.
Israel, I would move there in a New York Minute! Passports, $1600 per person.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? - 6/24/2008 11:52:20 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1984
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
tracydolls, so what is keeping you here? If America is so distasteful to you, why not move? In your opinion, which countries are better?
Just curious.
I don't think anyone's saying other countries are better. I think she's saying all the countries aren't all that different when it comes to morality. We had our own oppression and genocide, too. I disagree with her a bit, but I don't think her views are totally unreasonable.
quote:
I thought it was hilarious how many public figures threatened to leave the USA if Bush was elected for a second term. Somehow, I don't remember any of them packing up and leaving. Guess as horrible and awful as it is here, they couldn't find anywhere better?
I actually knew someone who left because President Bush was re-elected. But still, you'll agree that many countries are now better off than us, partly due to the fact that the Iraq war has cost us roughly $600 Billion in cash costs and accruals over the past three years- not to mention how many friends we're making in the middle east.
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RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? - 6/24/2008 11:54:59 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Well, I think it's ok for people to be proud of their country. The US is a very special place; it's rare to find a country that respects civil liberties the way the US does.
It's all right to smile to yourself and say, "Yeah right. This is a broken country, too," but I don't think we necessarily have to rain on other peoples' nationalist parades- at least until they start calling people anti-American.
Blessedinnyc,
Ok, I had to smile.  Yes, we are alot better than a whole bunch of countries.
I tried to stay out of this thread! I did. 
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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