quote:

ORIGINAL: kung_fu_sed

There are many "Jesus" out there. This http://youtube.com/watch?v=22htEwXYkLU could be the "Jesus" some ECM's preach about.

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ORIGINAL: facedown

kung-fu-sed
that was about the most....

okmedia
you highly recommend it?
why

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ORIGINAL: DenimDiva

quote:

ORIGINAL: kung_fu_sed

There are many "Jesus" out there. This http://youtube.com/watch?v=22htEwXYkLU could be the "Jesus" some ECM's preach about.

I only know one Jesus.

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ORIGINAL: sojourner9
"Right living is more important than right believing."

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"Every generation of those who decide to follow Christ learns that there are Bible texts to be reinterpreted, theologies to be reconstructed, faith communities to be re-imagined." Page 191

"We have experienced great joy in God's embrace of humanity through Jesus Christ. It has filled our lives with light. But Christianity's idea that other religions cannot be God's carriers of grace and truth casts a large shadow over our Christian experience. Does grace, the central teaching of Christianity, permeate all of reality, or is it something that is alive only for those who possess the New Testament and the Christian tradition?" Is the revelation that we have received through Jesus Christ an expression of what is everywhere at all times, or has the Christ Event emptied most of the world and time of saving grace and deposited it in one religion, namely ours? And more practically, how can we have genuine two-way conversation with non-Christians about our experience of God if we believe that God withholds his revelation from everyone but Christians?" page 191

"When we say that Christ saves, Christ represents something larger than the person we Christians have come to know. He is all and is in all. And Christ being "the only way' is not a statement of exclusion but inclusion, an expression of what is universal. If a relationship with a specific person, namely Christ, is the whole substance of a relationship with the God of the Bible, then the vast majority of people in world history are excluded from the possibility of a relationship with the God fo the Bible, along with the Hebrews of the OT who were without knowledge of Jesus Christ - the person. The question begs to be asked: would God who gives enough revelation for people to be judged but not enough revelation to be saved be a God worth worshiping? Never!" page 194-95

"For most critics of such open Christianity, the problem with inclusiveness is that it allows for truth to be found in other religions. To emerging Christians, that problem is sweet." page 196

"The godliness of non-Christians is not an anomaly in our theology." page 196

"Moreover, if non-Christians can know our God, then we want to benefit form their contributions to our faith." page 196

These quotes are from an essay entitled, "The Sweet Problem of Inclusiveness" by Samir Selamanovic. Selamanovic serves on the Coordinating Group for Emergent Village. This group is the leadership organization that drives the EC and is responsible for entering into the publishing relationship with Baker Books and organizing the annual EC conference.

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ORIGINAL: mushhead
"The godliness of non-Christians is not an anomaly in our theology." page 196

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ORIGINAL QUOTE: mushhead
jacobwdowning,
I don't know if anyone has answered your inquiries about the EC, but just in case they have not...
For the sake of brevity I will omit some details that are interesting, but not necessary to understand the subject matter. Also [again, for brevity's sake], I will not include quotes that demonstrate what I say the EC teaches or believes. However, I am prepared to provide those quotes if there is an ensuing conversation.

Genesis of the Emerging Church
1- The EC as a movement began about 1998, when a group of innovative, and mostly younger ministers who were experiencing success in reaching younger generations, gathered to discuss why the church was failing to retain its youth or reach younger generations of the unchurched. Organized by Doug Pagitt at the behest of the Dallas based Leadership Network, the conference attendees realized almost immediately that the issue was not generational, i.e. ministry to builders, boomers, busters, etc. Instead they discerned that the issue was a fundamental shift in epistemology (world view) from modernity to postmodernity.

2- A committee consisting of the likes of Tony Jones, Chris Seay, Mark Driscoll, and Dan Kimball (to name a few) was formed from among some of the conference members to explore how to minister effectively to postmoderns.

3- Some of the committee members traveled the country to share their conclusions with churches and youth ministers.

4- After some time, about a year (I think - going on memory), Brian McLaren was recruited by Doug Pagitt to join the committee because he had written a book about the church in the postmodern age. The committee became known as the TerraNova Project.

5- McLaren quickly assumed the leadership of the committee because, as Mark Driscoll put it, McLaren was the only one who had the time to take on the responsibility of that position. McLaren, who is a self-described evangelical (he is not an evangelical in any sense of the word, and I doubt he ever was), led the committee in a decidedly liberal direction that Driscoll was uncomfortable with, so Driscoll resigned.

6- The term "Emerging Church" was first used during a conversation between McLaren and Pagitt, about the church in the age of postmodernity.

7- This same committee, again changed its name and is now known as the coordinating group of Emergent Village, which is the current leadership committee (steering committee) of the EC that, among other things is responsible for entering the EC into partnerships, e.g. "Emersion" - a publishing partnership between the EC and Baker Books.

Purpose and goals of the EC

1-Find methods of sharing the gospel and conducting church that are relevant in the age of postmodernity and that resonate with postmoderns.
2-In 1994, at a conference hosted by Wheaton College, Nancy Murphy mused about the possibility that conservatives might adopt a change in methodology that would facilitate a reformation of theology for the postmodern age. In other words, Murphy saw the possibility that conservatives would react to postmodernity by opening the door to a fundamental change of doctrine. In 1995, at the close of another Wheaton College conference, George Lindbeck said that postmodernity provides a real opportunity to reinvigorate liberal theology.
3-Stanley Grenz wrote a book that attempted to provide a theological framework for this reinvigorated liberalism.
4-Later John Franke and Grenz collaborated on an expanded version of Grenz’s book, which was published under the title: “Beyond Foundationalism - Shaping Theology In A Postmodern Context.”
5-Foundationalism is the belief that certain facts are universal, objective, and undisputable. Because foundational facts are certain, they can be used like the foundation of a building, upon which the pursuit of knowledge can be constructed.
6-Franke and Grenz claim the church in the age of modernity built a theological system on the Foundationalism concept.
7-Theological Foundationalism is the basis of both conservative and liberal doctrine. The difference is how the two camps applied the concept. Liberals built their theology on the foundational concept of irrefutable religious experience and conservatives built their theology on an error free Bible.
8-Franke and Grenz sought to produce a theological system built on something other than Foundationalism, in order to give both liberals and conservatives common theological ground.
9-Franke and Grenz could not escape the concept of Foundationalism (after all, God is the ultimate foundation. therefore we simply cannot go beyond Foundationalism). However they did propose a new foundation for theology.
10-The new foundation is God’s purpose in creation, which Franke and Grenz claims is Trinitarian theology. Trinitarian theology teaches that God is three persons in relationship with one another. Therefore, God created mankind to be in relationship with Him and Him with mankind.
11-In Trinitarian theology, experience and scripture are invaluable. However, the purpose of Scripture is to tell the story of mankind’s and God’s relationship with one another. In this sense, scripture is error free. However, Scripture is not intended to be used to define doctrines as are found in “systematic theologies.”
12-Those liberal and conservative Christians who join in promoting this new theology are called post conservative and post liberal.
13-Brian McLaren was deeply influenced by “Beyond Foundationalism.” He, and many other emergents, cite this book as a source of significant influence on their new way of thinking about Christianity.
14-Franke and Grenz’s theology is not conservative in any definition of the word, and their “post-conservative” is nothing other than a new name for liberal.
15-Franke and Grenz, along with most emergents, claim this is the theology of pre-Constantinian Christianity.
16-Therefore, the change in direction Brian McLaren introduced to the TerraNova project, indicates the EC is the vehicle for the attempt to reinvent and reinvigorate liberal theology under the guise of authentic ancient evangelicalism/Christianity in the age of postmodernity.

Emergent Theology for Postmoderns
1-Understanding academic or philosophical postmodernity is not required, but to understand the theology of the EC it is necessary to have a basic grasp of the average postmodern’s world view - what I like to call the "postmodern street."

2-Postmoderns reject the concept of absolutes. Absolutes are anything that is true for everyone, in every culture, in every age - sometimes referred to as metanarratives. As a result, postmoderns believe that truth, morality, and values are a matter of perspective. Individuals and cultures determine for themselves how to define truth and error, morality, and values from their experiences, circumstances, and traditions. A classic example is the interpretation of historical events such as the Founding Fathers and the American Revolution. Americans see these men as courageous heroes and freedom fighters. The British see them as rebels and terrorists who sought to undermine and destabilize England. Each position is believed to be true, but only from their particular cultural perspectives. Another example is marriage. Some cultures view polygamy and marriage to teenagers as acceptable, but most likely for economic reasons unique to those cultures. Morality is another issue affected by postmodernity. Postmoderns believe that Biblical morality, such as the condemnation of homosexuality, was true in the past (most likely because this doctrine established order and cohesiveness for less sophisticated societies), but is no longer necessary for today's cultures. Postmoderns also believe that all religions and forms of spirituality are expressions of worship to the same god. Postmoderns demonstrate an interest in spirituality and have a high regard for Jesus, but they tend to reject organized religion, especially Christianity, which they believe has perverted the message of Jesus and is filled with arbitrary rules designed to control people.
(admittedly this description of the postmodern street is woefully incomplete, however it gives enough information to understand the basis for the methods and theology that EC leaders believe are necessary to effectively reach postmoderns.)

3-emergent theology is an effort to appeal to postmoderns by redefining Christian doctrines that contradict the postmodern world view and are therefore offensive to postmoderns.
4-The foundation of EC beliefs is Trinitarian theology which is very similar to the theology of the Eastern Orthodox church (EOC).
5-Emergents believe that evangelicals misunderstand the intent of the Scriptures, which leads to the misuse of the Bible.
6-Emergents believe the Bible is a narrative that tells the story about:
a- How God created man to have a relationship with Him;
b- The consequences of mans rebellion against God - the consequence of sin: selfishness, self-centeredness, greed, abuse of power, injustice, wars, oppression, caste or class systems, starvation, slavery, homelessness, abuse of animals and the environment.
c- How religions participated in these evils by partnering with oppressive and violent governments in an effort to protect the authority and influence of established religious leaders.
7-The bible tells the story of how a loving God pursued His relationship with mankind, even though they had turned away from Him. It tells how God sought to teach man to live according to His original intent for creation - called by some “God’s undying dream for humanity.”
8-Emergents believe the Bible is not a source -dictionary - of doctrine or morality. Instead it simply tells the story of man’s sin and God’s effort to teach them to live according to his undying dream for humanity. First by setting apart a people for Himself, through whom God attempted to establish a more compassionate social system that would serve as an example for the whole world, and culminating in the life and teachings of Jesus who demonstrated perfectly God’s ways, e.g. teaching to lead by serving, loving one’s neighbors as themselves, etc. Whoever lives according to this undying dream, as demonstrated in the actions of Jesus, is a disciple of Jesus.
9-Anyone that conforms to the “way of Jesus” is a disciple…even if they don’t realize it.
10-As a result, the EC doctrine of soteriology (salvation):
a) teaches that salvation comes through Jesus only
b) denies penal substitutionary atonement - Jesus was crucified, but not to pay penalty of death for man’s sins. Jesus’ submission to execution was the ultimate form of protest against the epitome of the worlds leadership methods (self-centered, power hungry, oppressive Roman government and Judaism’s collaboration with Rome.
c)Jesus provides salvation by teaching and demonstrating the attitudes and behavior God originally intended for man.
d)Salvation is two fold: 1- deliverance from the consequences of rebellion against God in this temporal life (listed above) resulting from the individual living in harmony with God’s undying dream (original intent) for humanity. 2-The individual following Jesus’ example of protesting against injustice, seeking to right wrongs, showing compassion to the hurting, meeting physical and spiritual needs.
e)Salvation is not about eternal life with God in some future paradise.
f)Confessing faith in Jesus is not necessary for salvation. In fact it is possible to reject the gospel and still be saved (this does not mean that they might have a change of mind in the future, but that specific belief in Jesus’ gospel is not necessary for salvation).
g)Conversion from pagan religions is not necessary to be saved or to be considered a disciple of Jesus.
h) “Saved” is living according to the “way of Jesus.” Adherents of pagan religions can be disciples of Jesus. Terms like “Buddhist Christian” “Muslim Christian” “Hindu Christian” are used to describe this EC doctrine.
I)It is unloving, and in some cases, sinful to require conversion to Christianity.
j)All religions have teachings that are considered wheat (doctrines that if obeyed will lead people to live according to the “way of Jesus“), and all religions, including Christianity, have teachings that are tares.
k)Doctrine is ever changing and should be determined by all religions, including Christianity, dialoguing with one another to learn the good (truth) other religions have to offer.
l)Religions need to be saved - that is, all religions need to change the practices that are antithetical to the way of Jesus, and enhance the doctrines consistent with the “way of Jesus.”
m)Some emergents - not all, but some - deny the literal bodily resurrection of Jesus. They believe the resurrection is a metaphor for the better way of life the “way of Jesus” represents.
n) “Incarnational” and Missional;” Incarnational describes the practice of exhibiting the attitude of Jesus’ in every aspect of one’s life and reaching out to people in need by going to where they are and operating in their culture. Missional is the practice of being on mission in every aspect of ones life and in all of ones relationships, and meeting the needs of those people.


Emergent Congregations and practices:
1-Emergent churches are congregations led by pastors teaching EC theology.
2-Most EC churches are independent because they find that association with denominations or established evangelical (and mainline) churches expose them to interference from the parent organization. However, some denominations are experimenting with EC congregations.
3-Because of the concept of Missional and Incarnational, most EC churches are typically designed to reach certain cultures; e.g. homeless, bars, club or rave, etc. However, not all of them begin this way, and those that do, tend to branch out to other cultures as people join.
4-Because postmoderns tend to appreciate ancient worship practices and symbolism, many emerging churches employ candles, icons, liturgy, and religious symbols in their worship
5-Because postmoderns tend to be techies, some emerging churches use multi-media technology in every area of worship, including the sacraments.
6-Emerging worship services are a blend of ancient and contemporary.
7-Because postmodernism has reinvigorated an interest in the arts, many emerging churches use the arts to enhance the worship experience. In some emerging churches, some of the worshippers will be painting, sculpting, or creating pottery, which symbolizes, among other things, the creative nature of the divine.
8-Emerging sermons are commonly narrations of God’s effort to reach man - telling the story of the Bible.
9-Many emergents call the EC a conversation because they value the life stories of each individual. The conversation allows individuals to tell of their experience, what they learned about God or how they experienced God on their life journey. The one rule, is that they do not criticize or tell someone that anything they say is wrong. This is demonstrated in Donald Miller’s book “Blue Like Jazz.” He tells of his struggles; about his experience as a church youth group leader while he was stoned. In every story, he makes no effort to communicate the good or the bad, or draw any “moral of the story” conclusions for that matter. This is because truth is in the eye of the beholder, and the highest value is the experience, which is part of the relationship with God.
10-Some emerging churches engage in pagan practices such as prayer labyrinths, transcendental meditation, channeling, and so forth to enhance their experience with the divine.

Emergent methodology for promoting their movement:
1-Emergents target postmoderns (primarily, but not limited to, between the teenage years and 30) with a theology of Jesus that is specially designed to appeal to their worldview.
2-Emergents target disgruntled Christians of every age by distorting the doctrine, the history, and the practices of Christianity.
3-Emergents slander traditional Christianity by describing the church as if the media’s portrayal of Christianity is accurate.
4-Emergents claim that traditional Christians do not:
a) have an authentic relationship with Jesus
b) authentically pray
c) have authentic relationships with one another
d) seek to meet the needs of people in their own neighborhoods
e) ever do anything of value in the world
f) understand the intent of Jesus’ message and mission
g) care about the environment
h) seek justice for the oppressed
I) love people that are not like them, e.g. homosexuals
j) do not understand paradox, or realize that God is primarily a mystery

5)Emergents claim that traditional Christians do:
a) isolate themselves from their own culture by hunker ingdown behind the walls of their church buildings
b) wrongly declare that anyone who doesn’t believe just like them is not a Christian
c) preach hate filled messages of exclusion
d) marginalize people different than them
e) believe that Jesus is a republican
f) use their doctrine and structure to gain power over people
g) adopt the philosophy and world view of modernity and then incorporate it into their doctrine
h) act as if their theology is the same as the Apostles and church fathers, when in fact it is an invention of post-Constantinian Christianity
I) are anti-intellectual and anti-scientific
j) wrongly assume that the Bible contains all that can be known about God, thus declaring that any experience that contradicts Biblical revelation is not of God.
k) Use the Bible to control and condemn people
l) only care about getting people saved, but don’t care at all about their lives in the here and now.
m) believe Christianity is only about a future in paradise

Some concluding thoughts
As you can see, the EC does have structure. It is similar to denominations like Calvary Chapels that begin with a leadership already in place, then invite anyone that agrees with them to join with them in serving God. Anyone can call themselves Emerging as long as they agree with fundamental emerging church doctrine. They do not have to agree on every point, but on they must agree on the essentials. Not every one that calls him or herself emerging, is. Much in the same way that not all churches that call themselves Calvary Chapel are recognized by the Calvary Chapel organization, so to, not everyone that calls him or herself emerging is actually emerging.

You also might notice that the EC does have an agreed upon theology. Emergents differ on the focus of their missiology (how they incarnate Jesus in their cultures), and they don’t all agree about the implications of their movement for the future, but they do share common theological beliefs about Jesus, the Bible, salvation, and ultimately how truth and morality are defined. Something that must not be misunderstood is that emergents believe theology must change as cultures change. The point of scripture is to tell the story of God's hopes and purposes for creation. God's primary purpose for creation is for people to live in harmoneous and loving relationship with one another and with God. The purpose of theology is to promote those relationships. Therefore, any doctrine that dismisses or alienates people subverts God's intent for creation. So theology must change and adapt as Christians encounter and engage different cultural views, and theology must change as cultural views change, e.g. the change from a prohibition against homosexuality to the acceptance of homosexuality. Emergents do not believe, however, that theologically speaking, anything goes. The trajectory of scripture over the course of history must be adhered to, and must guide future theological formulations. This is why the Emergent belief about the proper use of Scripture is such a critical issue. They believe that the standard that guides future theological formulations (or said another way) the proper purpose of theology is to create a means for building lasting relationships between people. Therefore, it is acceptable to change commands, as long as those changes facilitate building loving relationships and avoid excluding or devaluing people.

I hope this was clear enough to give you a basic mental image of what the EC is. Any questions?

< Message edited by mushhead -- 3/3/2008 4:09:09 PM >

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ORIGINAL: DenimDiva

Thanks mush!

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ORIGINAL: Soxfan

This reminds me of an awesome quote that I think Spurgeon said. I'll paraphrase:

"The church should change to fit the Bible, rather than change the Bible to fit the church"

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ORIGINAL: preachermyron

The Church needs to be extremely careful about criticism of the recent things of the Holy Spirit taking place. God desires a kingdom culture and not a church culture. There is a shift taking place that is moving His Church away from the old and tired status quo and into the realm of a higher and deeper relationship with God. This calls for us to change which even believes are hesitant to admit to and will not do. Many believers are being suspicious and critical because it is something that is a new and strange and moves us away from the old ways that have hindered the Church. We the Church must remember that although the very essence that is God is immutable His methods change to fit what He is trying to do and accomplish. Church remember that His ways and thoughts are not our ways and thoughts. That's because His ways and thoughts transcend our ways and thoughts and are higher then our ways and thoughts. Church we must cease from keeping God in a box. Myron. preachermyron@yahoo.com