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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/15/2005 12:55:26 PM
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GoodME
Posts: 120
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
I could see him being beatified and later canonized as a patron saint of reconciliation. The genuine love and strides he made in reuniting our Orthodox bretheren will hopefully be the beginning of the healing of the Schism.
This is so ...wow..., I got goose-bumps reading it.
EXACTLY what I was thinking - the Patron of reconciliation - Communist to Capitalist, East to West, youth to the aged, Christian to not-Christian......
Interesting.......
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/15/2005 1:03:11 PM
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1lightseeker
Posts: 504
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker
Indeed, blessed are the peacemakers.
Dear 1lightseeker,
Yes, but cursed are the peace-at-any-price makers, who are already so active.
Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!
Right. I'm not a comprimise for unity kind of person. Some of the language used to describe unity between the CC and OC has been that our differences are just a matter of semantics. I don't agree with that. But Pope John Paul did make strides for genuine unity between us like when he returned the relics of Sts John Crysostom and Gregory Nazianzus to Constantinople last year.
I don't know that much about him, but I'm impressed with what I've heard about his prayer life, regard for icons of Mary, and his devotion to her. Though the OC probably wouldn't agree with all the attributes he would ascribe to her such as co-mediatrix/redemptrix.
_____________________________
My Blog
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/15/2005 1:19:34 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
I could see him being beatified and later canonized as a patron saint of reconciliation. The genuine love and strides he made in reuniting our Orthodox bretheren will hopefully be the beginning of the healing of the Schism.
This is so ...wow..., I got goose-bumps reading it.
EXACTLY what I was thinking - the Patron of reconciliation - Communist to Capitalist, East to West, youth to the aged, Christian to not-Christian......
Interesting.......
I got that idea from The Gordian Knot, an orthodox blogger in his entry here: http://the_great.blogspot.com/2005_04_01_the_great_archive.html#111248014189865406
The way he talked about how John Paul II approached the Orthodox not as father to his wayward sons but as an older brother seeking reconciliation just cinched it for me.
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/15/2005 1:27:40 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 118
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Washington, DC
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quote:
I don't know that much about him, but I'm impressed with what I've heard about his prayer life, regard for icons of Mary, and his devotion to her. Though the OC probably wouldn't agree with all the attributes he would ascribe to her such as co-mediatrix/redemptrix.
BTW, the Catholic Church doesn't officially teach that Mary is the co-redemptrix or co-mediatrix. While it is true that these are questions that come up quite a bit in the Church, at the current time they are not doctrines that are found in the Catechism and are not part of the revealed faith. Time will see if the Church decides that these titles are fit for the Mother of Our Lord (which I don't think that they are), but presently they are not.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/15/2005 3:07:33 PM
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divinemercy
Posts: 46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME
To all - any thoughts on whether our late Pontiff John Paul II will be beatified fairly quickly by the Church? What might you imagine him being the patron of?
I have an opinion, but I would like to see yours.
I could see him being beatified and later canonized as a patron saint of reconciliation. The genuine love and strides he made in reuniting our Orthodox bretheren will hopefully be the beginning of the healing of the Schism.
Wow Lurker, I love your response. That would be truely fitting, wouldnt it? 
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/15/2005 3:14:05 PM
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divinemercy
Posts: 46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker
Indeed, blessed are the peacemakers.
Dear 1lightseeker,
Yes, but cursed are the peace-at-any-price makers, who are already so active.
Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!
So true sdaw.
All the peace the Holy Father brought to this world through love, without any force or worldly might. With love and not a big stick.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/16/2005 1:56:16 PM
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bridgefin
Posts: 135
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Boca Raton, FL
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HeavyDuty,
quote:
So prayer then does not necessarily equal "worship".
Of course not (in the current sense of the word "worship"). If it did then our "prayer" (request) to a departed saint would be an active work of blasphemy and we would rightly be condemned to eternity for such.
In Christ, George
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/17/2005 12:16:20 AM
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HeadHome
Posts: 53
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OK - I gotta make this quick...I got timed out trying to post my promised dissenting view of S. Benedict's post #2. In a nutshell, my objection to asking the dearly departed for prayer centers on the Bible. Dear S., I interpret Scripture differently than you did. I love to read the Bible, and I try to apprehend the meaning of what I read. After checking the KJV (just because it's the KJV), NASB (because it's my pastor's version), and the NKJV (my personal favorite), I reached these conclusions:
I consider Rev. 5:8 to mean that the 4 living creatures and 24 elders do not know the specifics of the prayers they present to God in the golden bowls of incense. Let me use this analogy: It is as if they are messengers, sent by their boss to pick up confidential data in envelopes. They don't sneak peeks inside those envelopes, because they want to be trustworthy. In the same way, I believe that God allows them to offer the prayers, but not necessarily to know what those prayers are.
I also disagree with your statement that Psalms 103:20-21 and 148:1-2 tell us to "invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us." Those verses tell us to bless the Lord, and to praise the Lord. But they make no claim as to whom we should pray with.
Finally, two points about intercession. We agree that Christians are to pray for one another. But... 1) doing so demonstrates obedience to the Scriptural command of God which living Christians are to pursue as part of our walk of faith, and...2) I prefer to recall Heb. 7:25 and Rom. 8:26 in this area. Since Jesus lives to make intercession for us; and the Holy Spirit intercedes for us when we are weak and do not know how to pray as we ought; I therefore see no reason to settle for anyone else that is no longer alive on earth. (That includes His mother, Mary - a precious example of faith and submission to God, but an inappropriate object of worship.)
I mean no offense, but from where I sit, I stand convinced. God bless.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/17/2005 12:34:21 AM
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divinemercy
Posts: 46
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
but an inappropriate object of worship.)
Headhome, where did S.Benedict say worship?
God alone is worthy of worship as all Christiandom agrees, Catholic and non-Catholic.
No faithful Catholic nor anything perscribed by the Holy See or any dogma says otherwise.
Only non-Catholics say that Catholics believe that.
That is a false statement usually out of ignorance or outright prejudice against Catholics.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/17/2005 4:47:30 PM
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GoodME
Posts: 120
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HeadHome
I consider Rev. 5:8 to mean that the 4 living creatures and 24 elders do not know the specifics of the prayers they present to God in the golden bowls of incense. Let me use this analogy: It is as if they are messengers, sent by their boss to pick up confidential data in envelopes. They don't sneak peeks inside those envelopes, because they want to be trustworthy. In the same way, I believe that God allows them to offer the prayers, but not necessarily to know what those prayers are. How do you know this, though? Coin flip and yours came up "tails", and you are accusing the Catholics of "heads"? I mean, you said "I consider..." and then presented an anaology, but you didn't say WHY "I consider....".
I also disagree with your statement that Psalms 103:20-21 and 148:1-2 tell us to "invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us." Those verses tell us to bless the Lord, and to praise the Lord. But they make no claim as to whom we should pray with.
Finally, two points about intercession. We agree that Christians are to pray for one another. But... 1) doing so demonstrates obedience to the Scriptural command of God which living Christians are to pursue as part of our walk of faith, and...2) I prefer to recall Heb. 7:25 and Rom. 8:26 in this area. Since Jesus lives to make intercession for us; and the Holy Spirit intercedes for us when we are weak and do not know how to pray as we ought; I therefore see no reason to settle for anyone else that is no longer alive on earth. (That includes His mother, Mary - a precious example of faith and submission to God, but an inappropriate object of worship.) I think you need to go back and see my "St. Sadibelle, patron of harried travelers" post on the previous page. You have also slotted into your sentence an accusation ("inappropriate object of worship") that has clearly been denied by many Catholics here, and yet, this late in the discussion, you couldn't help yourself and insisted on interjecting it again.
And then asked me to "not take offense". Okay I won't, if you won't take offense that I believe only pinheads believe Catholics worship Mary....Hopefully, that's the last time any Catholic has to deny this accusation here.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/17/2005 8:12:32 PM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Dear All:
I'll stand with Jesus and his word:
There is no place in His doctrine nor the gospel of Christ that says he prayed to saints or his mother. Or ever taught, to pray TO another being than GOD.
Clear and simple.
Jesus, said I am the resurrecetion and The Life. And that HE is the road to salvation!
Praise God.
Clear and simple: any prayer to any other being than TO God is a false faith.
Grace and Peace
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/17/2005 8:27:44 PM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1345
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Dear All:
And it is fitting to point out that Christ did not carry a banner across his heart, of 'a particular faith', even though he was a Jew.
His mission was to honor God and his WORD.
And so, if we pray ''TO '' any other being than ''TO'' God we dishonor God.
Grace and Peace
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/17/2005 8:34:24 PM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Dear All:
And so I boldy place a sincere declaration to all who ponder and pray TO the cannonization of would be's:
Cannonization is a false tradition and faith. This tradition and beatification is NOT taught to us by Christ. If this is the road to faith, and TO pray to this road of saints-then take HEED--this road is NOT found IN the WORD OF GOD, NOR taught by the Son of God.
Grace and Peace
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/17/2005 9:20:43 PM
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S.Benedict
Posts: 29
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Dear DeborahL,
Catholics do not pray to the saints in the way you use the word "to". Pray has its beginnings, and in the Catholic use when praying to saints, meaning to ask. Even those who die in this life are still alive in the next. One's soul cannot die. Those Saints in Heaven are who we pray "to" and pray=ask them to also pray for usand our intientions. Yes, Christ is the one mediator. But, the saints, who are alive in heaven, pray for us that God's will may be done unto us.
_____________________________
I am already saved, but I’m also being saved, and I have the hope that I will be saved. Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling, with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/17/2005 9:43:39 PM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Dear SBenedict:
You:
Catholics do not pray to the saints in the way you use the word "to".
Me: I am very sorry to disagree with you. CLEARLY any prayer TO another being than God is false. It is simple linguistics.
I was raised Roman Catholic and it was prevalent to PRAY TO Mary and TO Saints, for what the gospel says Jesus does for all. The Savior who lives in us. By faith. And what faith is it that we possess, when we have faith in anther idol? This I pose to you.
'''Simply'' your above statement is wrong, according to the word of God.
You: Pray has its beginnings,
Me: Jesus taught us the correct beginning and the end: In his Name according to the word.
You: and in the Catholic use when praying to saints, meaning to ask.
Me: This is false teaching. Jesus never taught us to PRAY TO another being, than GOD>TO PRAY TO. ALL needs are met by our GOD> This is FUNDAMENTAL TO GENUINE FAITH IN GOD. And no other.
You: Even those who die in this life are still alive in the next. One's soul cannot die. Those Saints in Heaven are who we pray "to" and pray=ask them to also pray for usand our intientions. Yes, Christ is the one mediator. But, the saints, who are alive in heaven, pray for us that God's will may be done unto us.
Me: This is false teaching according to the gospel Jesus Christ our ''Savior and Lord''. He our Lord and Savior, NEVER taught us to pray TO anyone else for 'anything' than TO our GOd.
I'll stand with Jesus and his example, and his word: and pray TO God, for 'everything'.
Grace and Peace
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/18/2005 1:50:54 AM
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mike711
Posts: 10
Joined: 4/11/2005
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GoodME,
quote:
Think about the words of the "Hail Mary" prayer - "Holy Mary....pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death" - nothing about me praying TO her. If anything - the prayer is to God - heard by Mary, due to her proximatey and asking for her to pray as well.
Here are are 3 prayers of the Pope John Paul II to Mary, and he is clearly praying TO Mary and asking her to do things that only God can do...
O Mary
bright dawn of the new world,
Mother of the living,
to you do we entrust the cause of life:
Look down, O Mother,
upon the vast numbers
of babies not allowed to be born,
of the poor whose lives are made difficult,
of men and women
who are victims of brutal violence,
of the elderly and the sick killed
by indifference or out of misguided mercy.
Grant that all who believe in your Son
may proclaim the Gospel of life
with honesty and love
to the people of our time.
Obtain for them the grace
to accept that Gospel
as a gift ever new,
the joy of celebrating it with gratitude
throughout their lives
and the courage to bear witness to it resolutely, in order to build,
together with all people of good will,
the civilization of truth and love,
to the praise and glory of God,
the Creator and lover of life.
Immaculate Heart of Mary,
help us to conquer the menace of evil,
which so easily takes root
in the hearts of the people of today,
and whose immeasurable effects already
weigh down upon our modern world
and seem to block the paths toward the future.
From famine and war, deliver us.
From nuclear war, from incalculable self destruction,
from every kind of war, deliver us.
From sins against human life from its very beginning,
deliver us.
From hatred and from the demeaning of the dignity
of the children of God, deliver us.
From readiness to trample on the commandments
of God, deliver us.
From the loss of awareness of good and evil,
deliver us.
From sins against the Holy Spirit,
deliver us.
Accept, O Mother of Christ,
this cry laden with the sufferings of all individual
human beings, laden with the sufferings
of whole societies.
Help us with the power of the Holy Spirit conquer all
sin:
individual sin and the "sin of the world,"
sin in all its manifestations.
Let there be revealed once more in the history of the
world the infinite saving power of the redemption:
the power of the merciful love.
May it put a stop to evil.
May it transform consciences.
May your Immaculate Heart
reveal for all the light of hope.
Amen.
Mary, Mother of hope,
accompany us on our journey!
Teach us to proclaim the living God;
help us to bear witness to Jesus,
the one Savior;
make us kindly towards our neighbors,
welcoming to the needy,
concerned for justice,
impassioned builders of a more just world;
intercede for us
as we carry out our work in history,
certain that the Father's plan will be fulfilled.
Dawn of a new world,
show yourself the Mother of hope
and watch over us!
Watch over the Church in Europe:
may she be transparently open to the Gospel;
may she be an authentic place
of communion;
may she carry out fully her mission
of proclaiming, celebrating and serving
the Gospel of hope
for the peace and joy of all.
Queen of Peace,
Protect the men and women of the third millennium!
Watch over all Christians:
may they advance confidently
on the path of unity,
as a leaven of harmony for the continent.
Watch over young people:
the hope of the future,
may they respond with generosity
to the call of Jesus.
Watch over the leaders of nations:
may they be committed
to building a common house
which respects the dignity and rights of every person.
Mary, give us Jesus!
Grant that we may follow him and love him!
He is the hope of the Church,
of Europe and of all humanity!
He lives with us, in our midst, in his Church!
With you we say:
"Come, Lord Jesus" (Rev 22:20).
May the hope of glory
which he has poured into our hearts
bear fruits of justice and peace!
Mary Prayers
Sadly,
Mike
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/18/2005 6:44:42 PM
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GoodME
Posts: 120
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mike711
GoodME, Mike,
O Mary
bright dawn of the new world,
Mother of the living,
to you do we entrust the cause of life:You broke the composition here, I have underlined where this is headed - to help you out
Look down, O Mother,
upon the vast numbers
of babies not allowed to be born,
of the poor whose lives are made difficult,
of men and women
who are victims of brutal violence,
of the elderly and the sick killed
by indifference or out of misguided mercy.
Grant that all who believe in your Son
may proclaim the Gospel of life
with honesty and love
to the people of our time.
Obtain for them the grace
to accept that Gospel
as a gift ever new,
the joy of celebrating it with gratitude
throughout their lives
and the courage to bear witness to it resolutely, in order to build,
together with all people of good will,
the civilization of truth and love,
to the praise and glory of God,
the Creator and lover of life.
Immaculate Heart of Mary,
help us to conquer the menace of evil, (an appeal to example here, wouldn't you say? (heart of Mary - meaning emotion, attitude, feeling)
which so easily takes root
in the hearts of the people of today,
and whose immeasurable effects already
weigh down upon our modern world
and seem to block the paths toward the future.
From famine and war, deliver us.
From nuclear war, from incalculable self destruction,
from every kind of war, deliver us.
From sins against human life from its very beginning,
deliver us.
From hatred and from the demeaning of the dignity
of the children of God, deliver us.
From readiness to trample on the commandments
of God, deliver us.
From the loss of awareness of good and evil,
deliver us.
From sins against the Holy Spirit,
deliver us.
Accept, O Mother of Christ,
this cry laden with the sufferings of all individual
human beings, laden with the sufferings
of whole societies.
Help us with the power of the Holy Spirit conquer all
sin:
individual sin and the "sin of the world,"
sin in all its manifestations.
Let there be revealed once more in the history of the
world the infinite saving power of the redemption:
the power of the merciful love.
May it put a stop to evil.
May it transform consciences.
May your Immaculate Heart
reveal for all the light of hope.
Amen.
Mary, Mother of hope,
accompany us on our journey!
Teach us to proclaim the living God;
help us to bear witness to Jesus,
the one Savior;
make us kindly towards our neighbors,
welcoming to the needy,
concerned for justice,
impassioned builders of a more just world;
intercede for us
as we carry out our work in history,
certain that the Father's plan will be fulfilled.
Dawn of a new world,
show yourself the Mother of hope
and watch over us!
Watch over the Church in Europe:
may she be transparently open to the Gospel;
may she be an authentic place
of communion;
may she carry out fully her mission
of proclaiming, celebrating and serving
the Gospel of hope
for the peace and joy of all.
Queen of Peace,
Protect the men and women of the third millennium!
Watch over all Christians:
may they advance confidently
on the path of unity,
as a leaven of harmony for the continent.
Watch over young people:
the hope of the future,
may they respond with generosity
to the call of Jesus.
Watch over the leaders of nations:
may they be committed
to building a common house
which respects the dignity and rights of every person.
Mary, give us Jesus!
Grant that we may follow him and love him!
He is the hope of the Church,
of Europe and of all humanity!
He lives with us, in our midst, in his Church!
With you we say:
"Come, Lord Jesus" (Rev 22:20).
May the hope of glory
which he has poured into our hearts
bear fruits of justice and peace!
Mary Prayers
Sadly,
Mike
I can parse the words to make my point, as well, but its a long prayer.
So - you are against worshipping and glorifying God by invoking the example of one of His Saints, that He so blessed and Graced to obey Him? Would you rather we took our example from someone who showed much less obedience and charity?Would you rather we follow a different recipe?
How is this then not "law" and a "works-based" Faith (you don't object to worshipping God, you just don't like the "recipe" with which I choose to worship God, and you'd rather I just worship your way, because you are the vessel of Truth, and your "recipe" is better than mine).
Is this what you are saying?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/18/2005 7:35:10 PM
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mike711
Posts: 10
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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GoodME,
quote:
"So - you are against worshipping and glorifying God by invoking the example of one of His Saints, that He so blessed and Graced to obey Him? Would you rather we took our example from someone who showed much less obedience and charity?Would you rather we follow a different recipe?"
Thats not at all what I am against. I am against attempting to contact any other being than God in prayer...as this is necromancy. Although dead saints are alive in spirit form, they are still referred to by God as "the dead" and we are forbidden to try and contact them. I am against the necromancy that these prayers are.
I am also against crediting sinners saved by grace with titles that only belong to God, and crediting them with having attributes that only God has...as is clearly done in this idolatrous prayer and so many others.
quote:
"How is this then not "law" and a "works-based" Faith (you don't object to worshipping God, you just don't like the "recipe" with which I choose to worship God, and you'd rather I just worship your way, because you are the vessel of Truth, and your "recipe" is better than mine).
Is this what you are saying?
No.
It has nothing to do with being a lawkeeper or not, or having a works based faith or not. It has nothing to do with my "recipe" or your "recipe". It has to do with worshipping God and communicating with Him in a way He is pleased with, rather than a way he is not pleased with.
It has to do with idolatry, heresy, and necromancy.
God bless,
Mike
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/18/2005 7:57:10 PM
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divinemercy
Posts: 46
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
am against attempting to contact any other being than God in prayer...as this is necromancy. Although dead saints are alive in spirit form, they are still referred to by God as "the dead" and we are forbidden to try and contact them. I am against the necromancy that these prayers are.
It was okay in the OT though? 1 Samuel 28 , when Saul talked to Samuel after he was dead. And Samuel told him what was to come to him. God did not forbid Saul from doing so, nor punished him.
Was God wrong? If it was vs and chapter please.
quote:
attributes that only God has...as is clearly done in this idolatrous prayer and so many others.
Only misinformed or prejudice non catholics say such things. Catholics dont idolize anyone but God.
Get real and informed before you spout your posts. Thank you.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/18/2005 8:16:45 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: divinemercy
quote:
am against attempting to contact any other being than God in prayer...as this is necromancy. Although dead saints are alive in spirit form, they are still referred to by God as "the dead" and we are forbidden to try and contact them. I am against the necromancy that these prayers are.
It was okay in the OT though? 1 Samuel 28 , when Saul talked to Samuel after he was dead. And Samuel told him what was to come to him. God did not forbid Saul from doing so, nor punished him.
Was God wrong? If it was vs and chapter please.
quote:
attributes that only God has...as is clearly done in this idolatrous prayer and so many others.
Only misinformed or prejudice non catholics say such things. Catholics dont idolize anyone but God.
Get real and informed before you spout your posts. Thank you.
Dear divinemercy,
That is an interesting comment you made there, "Catholics don't idolize anyone but God." I believe you meant that "Catholics don't worship anyone but God."
Of course some Catholics do treat God as an idol. They beg Him for favors, try to bribe Him with good behavior if He will just do as they want. They think they have this God thing all figured out.
Many Protestants are the same way. They think that if they can quote a chapter and verse, then God is bound to obey the rules.
The trouble is, God is not an idol. He is not bound by anything except Himself. He binds Himself to the Sacraments, or to the promises He made as expressed in Scripture, but that is a far different thing than saying He is bound by them. God remains free.
Since God is free, He is not bound to explain to us how He does things. He may do everything Himself. He may delegate power to the angels and saints, and is under no obligation to tell us about it. If it is so, we may be assured that all things in Heaven, by whomsoever they are done, are done in union with His will.
Concerning the actions of the saints and angels in response to prayer. it is true that it may not be so. It is not true that it cannot be so.
Come Holy Spirit!
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/18/2005 8:41:26 PM
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divinemercy
Posts: 46
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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Yes sdaw, you are correct that i meant worship,
And very good post you have given.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/18/2005 9:14:24 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: divinemercy
Yes sdaw, you are correct that i meant worship,
And very good post you have given.
Dear divinemercy,
Deo gratias!
Come Holy Spirit!
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/18/2005 9:15:37 PM
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mike711
Posts: 10
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Only misinformed or prejudice non catholics say such things.
Thats not true. I am informed and I have no *prejudice* against Catholics. My issue is with the heresy, false teaching, and idolatry the Catholic Church promotes. I love Catholic people.
quote:
"Catholics dont idolize anyone but God."
I think you mis-spoke there. I believe you mean Catholics dont "worship" anyone but God.
I agree that the Catholic Church tells their people that Catholics dont worship anyone but God, but I concern myself more with what is actually going on rather than what The Hierarchy of the Catholic Church tells their people is going on.
quote:
"Get real and informed before you spout your posts."
I am real. I spent my whole life in the Catholic Church until the day I was born again at age 25. And I now spend a considerable amount of time digging into Catholic sources to make sure they really are guilty of these things.
quote:
"Thank you.
Your welcome, and thank you for reading.
God bless,
Mike
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/18/2005 9:23:34 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
I agree that the Catholic Church tells their people that Catholics dont worship anyone but God, but I concern myself more with what is actually going on rather than what The Hierarchy of the Catholic Church tells their people is going on.
Dear Mike,
But of course! Where do you think the creators of the X-Files got their inspiration?
Come Holy Spirit!
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 4/18/2005 9:40:29 PM
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mike711
Posts: 10
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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sdaw,
quote:
Where do you think the creators of the X-Files got their inspiration?
What are X-Files?
Mike
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