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ORIGINAL: Carico

And considering that there are pictures of Pope John Paul bowing down, kissing and praying to a statue of Mary, that's precisely why there is no good reason to carve even a statue of Mary!

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So the catholics absolutely carve statues of people as idols because they worship them by bowing down, kissing and praying to them just like the pagans do with their gods which are nothing more than objects of stone.

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But the Catholics have as much contempt for God's word as they have for mine and the words of others who believe the bible. That's why they even omitted the commandment in Exodus 20:4, thinking that they can erase any of God's Word. So not only are the catholics proud of disobeying God's word and breaking His commandments, they even think they can omit one of His commandments!...as if you think you can fool God.

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So you have zero defense of your position except that you place the pope's words above God's word. That proves that you worship people, not the living God. So since you don't listen to God's Word, you're not going to listen to anyone who believes and follows God's Word. You will always be at odds with us.

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And as to your other statements, Pr. 28:23, "He who rebukes a man will in the end gain more favor than he who has a flattering tongue."

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ORIGINAL: Carico

I also want to add that the very fact that the Catholics omitted the commandment in Exodus 20:4 proves that they know they are disobeying it. If they weren't disobeying it, then there's no reason to try to erase it. They obviously couldn't stand to look at it any more.

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What they should do is instead of trying to erase God's Word when they're convicted, is start trying to obey it. But only God's chosen can do that. So their own behavior shows that they know they're guilty.

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ORIGINAL: martyfran

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ORIGINAL: Carico

And considering that there are pictures of Pope John Paul bowing down, kissing and praying to a statue of Mary, that's precisely why there is no good reason to carve even a statue of Mary!

What prayer did Pope John Paul say to the statue? Also, is kissing worship? If a wife kisses a picture of her husband who is serving in Iraq, is that worship?

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So the catholics absolutely carve statues of people as idols because they worship them by bowing down, kissing and praying to them just like the pagans do with their gods which are nothing more than objects of stone.

Sorry, we don't worship statues. But if you think we do, why don't you find evidence from the Catechism that says we do worship statues.

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But the Catholics have as much contempt for God's word as they have for mine and the words of others who believe the bible. That's why they even omitted the commandment in Exodus 20:4, thinking that they can erase any of God's Word. So not only are the catholics proud of disobeying God's word and breaking His commandments, they even think they can omit one of His commandments!...as if you think you can fool God.

Actually, if you look at Exodus 20:4 in both the New American Bible and the NIV, I cannot find substantive difference between the two. The only difference is that we lumped part of what you call the second commandment into the first commandment.

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So you have zero defense of your position except that you place the pope's words above God's word. That proves that you worship people, not the living God. So since you don't listen to God's Word, you're not going to listen to anyone who believes and follows God's Word. You will always be at odds with us.

No, nothing in this area is against God's word. It is just against your interpretation of God's word.

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And as to your other statements, Pr. 28:23, "He who rebukes a man will in the end gain more favor than he who has a flattering tongue."

I will keep that in mind, the fact that my time on this board will in the end bring me more favor.

Why kiss stone? Why treat stone the same way God wants us to treat Him? Do you know the difference between kissing a human being and a carved object made by human hands? Kissing carved objects is idol worship. You are loving an object.

So you obviously have no clue why God gave us the Commandment in Exodus 20:4 which is why the Catholics have erased it. Again, that alone proves they know they are guilty and no amount of arguing is going to change that. Actions speak much louder than words.

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ORIGINAL: Carico

Do you know the difference between kissing a human being and a carved object made by human hands? Kissing carved objects is idol worship. You are loving an object.

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ORIGINAL: martyfran

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ORIGINAL: Carico

Do you know the difference between kissing a human being and a carved object made by human hands? Kissing carved objects is idol worship. You are loving an object.

I hate to tell you but a photograph is not a human being. It is an object made by human hands.

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ORIGINAL: Carico

Are you trying to show us why God is wrong in Exodus 20:4?

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they don't understand that objects can't speak and can't hear our prayers.

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ORIGINAL: stellaluna

I believe there is a difference between kneeling before the bed and addressing St. Bed. Some of these arguments are very silly.

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ORIGINAL: stellaluna

I don't think that prayer at all proves the case that Catholics don't worship Mary.

I've finally figured out the problem I have with this thread. I believe the Catholics posting here are in a league of their own. While you guys insist you do not worship Mary, and that praying to her is not worship, every Catholic IRL I've ever discussed such issues with says the opposite. They use all the same arguments you do for why it's okay to pray to her and to the saints, but I've never had anyone I talked to face-to-face deny that worship was taking place. In fact, in my last conversation with a Catholic friend (which was a couple of years ago), I was told that worship of Mary is allowed and encouraged because she is the mother of God. Another friend's dad goes to a special mass each Thursday that is set aside for the worship of "the Holy Mother." My own cousin told me to pray to some saint when my cat ran away because "God doesn't care about that stuff, that's why we pray to the saint." It appears other non-Catholics here have had similar experiences/discussions in real life.

So not only does some of what's posted here not match the writings of the RCC, it definitely doesn't jive with what we're hearing from Catholics we actually come into contact with in our lives.

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ORIGINAL: Carico

So there's no reason to pray to her and erect statues of her. The Catholics have no clue why Jesus didn't erect a statue of His mother. No clue.

Jeremiah 10:5, "Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them. they can do no harm nor can they do any good." So the statues of Mary that litter the Catholic churches are as useless as praying to a person who cannot answer you.

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ORIGINAL: martyfran

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ORIGINAL: Carico

And considering that there are pictures of Pope John Paul bowing down, kissing and praying to a statue of Mary, that's precisely why there is no good reason to carve even a statue of Mary!

What prayer did Pope John Paul say to the statue? Also, is kissing worship? If a wife kisses a picture of her husband who is serving in Iraq, is that worship?

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ORIGINAL: stellaluna

It means they are showing reverence to the statue...otherwise, why would you kneel at all?

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ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher


You have used this feeble excuse before.


Why would you kiss a picture of your wife ?

Why does the pope kiss a statue of Mary ?


Surely, you can tell us the difference...

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ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher

Let's use a simple illustration:


If you drove by my house, and I was

in the front yard kneeling before a statue

of Mary, what would you accuse me of ?

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ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher

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ORIGINAL: Carico

So there's no reason to pray to her and erect statues of her. The Catholics have no clue why Jesus didn't erect a statue of His mother. No clue.

Jeremiah 10:5, "Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them. they can do no harm nor can they do any good." So the statues of Mary that litter the Catholic churches are as useless as praying to a person who cannot answer you.

Is answered prayer attributed to God alone ?

When a prayer of mine is answered, I humbly

thank God that He graciously, in His mercy answered.

I entirely attribute the outcome to God...100 % !!!

I have no reason WHATSOEVER to thank Mary.


When a RC prayer is answered-who gets thanked ?

Does God receive all the praise, glory, and honor ?

Or since Mary interceeded, is she thanked as well ?
[/quote)

Giving credit to people for God's work in them is condemned all throughout the bible. But as is common knowledge, the Catholics don't follow the bible.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher

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ORIGINAL: stellaluna

I don't think that prayer at all proves the case that Catholics don't worship Mary.

I've finally figured out the problem I have with this thread. I believe the Catholics posting here are in a league of their own. While you guys insist you do not worship Mary, and that praying to her is not worship, every Catholic IRL I've ever discussed such issues with says the opposite. They use all the same arguments you do for why it's okay to pray to her and to the saints, but I've never had anyone I talked to face-to-face deny that worship was taking place. In fact, in my last conversation with a Catholic friend (which was a couple of years ago), I was told that worship of Mary is allowed and encouraged because she is the mother of God. Another friend's dad goes to a special mass each Thursday that is set aside for the worship of "the Holy Mother." My own cousin told me to pray to some saint when my cat ran away because "God doesn't care about that stuff, that's why we pray to the saint." It appears other non-Catholics here have had similar experiences/discussions in real life.

So not only does some of what's posted here not match the writings of the RCC, it definitely doesn't jive with what we're hearing from Catholics we actually come into contact with in our lives.

Very astute observation !!!

I am a former Mary worshipper.

Catholics pray to & worship Mary.


Many RC gladly admit it & defend it.

For some reason, the RC here deny.

I have attended numerous Marian rituals.

The order I was in was devoted to Mary.



Queen of heaven is quite a title.

May 1st is Mary's coronation day.

It is a solemn feast day to a RC.

A throne with Mary is carried around

the church while songs of praise resound.



The RCC has a GREAT love affair

with their self-proclaimed queen.

While The King of Kings is ignored

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Giving credit to people for God's work in them is condemned all throughout the bible. But as is common knowledge, the Catholics don't follow the bible.

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Just as the Church was inspired by the Spirit to define the doctrine of the Trinity from Scripture, Scripture also affirms the unity of the Body of Christ, everlasting life in Him, the mutual care and concern that is exercised by God's children, and the fact that nothing can separate us from Him Who binds us in perfect communion through the One Who loves us and is with us always. That same Church formulated the Creed that assents to belief in the "Communion of Saints." I don't know about you, but the promises of Christ's unending love means always to me, not just until I kick the bucket here on earth, nor should, or did, any Christian believe His love/grace ends at physical death until the innovation brought about by the "reformation." If His Love is in us, there is no way those Saints perfected and standing in His Everlasting Presence don't give a hoot about their fellow members of the Body of Christ. That's what our Lord was all about...loving others, and that is what He expects from His disciples/followers/children.

Consider St. Paul's words in 1Cor. 12. [Youz guyz like St. Paul, right?] ;)

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Now the body is not a single part, but many....The eye cannot say to the hand, "I DO NOT NEED YOU."....so that there may be NO DIVISION IN THE BODY, BUT THAT THE PARTS MAY HAVE THE SAME CONCERN FOR ONE ANOTHER. IF [ONE] PART SUFFERS, ALL THE PARTS SUFFER WITH IT; IF ONE PART IS HONORED, ALL THE PARTS SHARE ITS JOY.

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Just as the Church was inspired by the Spirit....

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Now the body is not a single part, but many....The eye cannot say to the hand, "I DO NOT NEED YOU."....so that there may be NO DIVISION IN THE BODY, BUT THAT THE PARTS MAY HAVE THE SAME CONCERN FOR ONE ANOTHER. IF [ONE] PART SUFFERS, ALL THE PARTS SUFFER WITH IT; IF ONE PART IS HONORED, ALL THE PARTS SHARE ITS JOY.

No comments from the non-Catholic community here? Surely, St. Paul echoes the unity of Catholic Christian thought. Right thar in Scripture! :)