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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/31/2008 10:10:11 PM
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Mannamuncher
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"[W]e hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty."
--POPE LEO XIII
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Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/31/2008 10:13:37 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2920
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B16 writings before pope.
Seems to reflect a rather different
mindset than what a pope should have .
Benedict XVI, Principles of Catholic Theology
(1982), p. 100:
“… the problem of tradition as it exists in the Church
…The Church is tradition… into which – let us admit
– much human pseudotradition has found its way;
so much so, in fact, that even, and even precisely,
the Church has contributed to the general crisis of
tradition that afflicts mankind.”
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 8/1/2008 10:56:19 AM
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Odeliya
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quote:
You think we have "odd" beliefs, why, why you think we are "lesser" Christians than you...how mean... 
You know, Otis that is so sad, sincerely, that you have such an impression. May I assure you, to support what Zhi said as well – we don’t think you are lesser at all!
I personally know Catholics i only dream of ever becoming half a Christian each of them are. And that is talking of modern times Catholics, not even the martyrs of the past – like some people i seen or my grandma’s dear friend that literally forced, convinced, helped my grandparents to make the hell out of their little german village in the the early 30s and they finally end up in Palestina.
She had an icon of Serafim Sarovsky given by that Catholic friend hanging by her bed to the day she died. Someone told me that is not CC saint but Orthodox, I honestly don’t know. (I always chuckled for it did in fact hang higher than the menorah level:)And CC saints we read about! Sarcastic dog like me of course thinks much of the life of the saints is heavily editorialized and polished , but even if 10% is true they are more Christians I and many of my fellow P-s will ever be!
So, please, not for us, but for yourself- stop thinking that way. We (P-s) don’t judge people’s level of Christian maturity by the name of the church they identify with. We believe that is not what defines a Christian.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 8/1/2008 3:29:11 PM
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texastweet
Posts: 376
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quote:
You know, Otis that is so sad, sincerely, that you have such an impression.
O,
Do please try to keep up. I was sarcastically (that is what that eyes rolling icon indicates) trying to point out that Zhi thinks the Pope is being mean by just setting forth definitions and yet he and you can't give him the benefit of the dought that he is not thinking less of anyone as well. You have a tough time separating doctrine from personal feelings.
Otis
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 8/1/2008 3:52:24 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1441
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quote:
Do please try to keep up. I was sarcastically (that is what that eyes rolling icon indicates) trying to point out that Zhi thinks the Pope is being mean by just setting forth definitions and yet he and you can't give him the benefit of the dought that he is not thinking less of anyone as well. You have a tough time separating doctrine from personal feelings.
First allow me to point out that I'm a woman.
I was asked a question regarding why Protestants are "allergic" to the Pope. That's a subjective question, and it DOES have a lot to do with emotional reactions regarding his stated feelings about our condition of faith. Is it a doctrinal statement? Yes. But, it's also a doctrinal statement ABOUT someone, and whenever you do that, you have to accept the fact that the person you've just given a doctrinal statement about might not be particularly happy about the content of that doctrinal statement. When his statement literally says that Protestants are lesser Christians, then one would assume that as giver of that doctrinal statement speaking on behalf of the religious organization he leads, that it must mirror his personal opinion... especially since as leader, he can change the position or soften it or just not reiterate it, if he so chooses (compare, for instance, with the way Pope John Paul approached the issue). I'm not sure how you could take it any other way.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 8/1/2008 4:23:24 PM
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Odeliya
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Otis, this is how i understood your post.
You said this to Zhi :
quote:
You think we have "odd" beliefs, why, why you think we are "lesser" Christians than you...how mean
Who is "You" in your sentence? i thought you meant Zhi and, knowing your.. well...usual well manners-challenged way, you implied that she thinks you are lesser Christian then P-s and that is mean. I explain to you why you are mistaken.
Are you saying now that by "You" you meant a Pope? Which one? There were quite a few real lowlifers and scumbags, dirty mouths Popes in the earlier days that used to uncontrollably spit some nasty words towards Protestants.
Calling us heretics and such, saying basically that we are not saved.
Yes, they thought of us as "Lesser". Actually some would even argue - "not Christians" at all.
Some Popes were real mud. I am very glad that modern ones cleaned up their act.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 8/1/2008 5:08:43 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Oh, you little person! Probably "Hope" for a "Change", no ? Maybe some just have a problem with authority.
I don't - I leverage it all the time in my business relationships.
I find in my case that if I can get past my own personal pride and try a little humility now and then, I am better off and can gain much through the wisdom, counsel and experience of others, who are more than willing to help me. I learned this really well in my early twenties, and I am a better late forties person because of it.
I am, however, the first to admit that assent from me is not given freely. It has to be earned. By a demonstration of generating results, or perhaps by pedigree in some cases - both of which I acknowledge and accept in my choice of Spiritual instructors and pastoral leadership.
Just a thought.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 8/1/2008 9:47:23 PM
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texastweet
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quote:
First allow me to point out that I'm a woman.
Well I always see a baby boy--in your picture so...oops sorry.
quote:
I was asked a question regarding why Protestants are "allergic" to the Pope. That's a subjective question, and it DOES have a lot to do with emotional reactions regarding his stated feelings about our condition of faith.
That statement implied that many react to the pope almost in an irrational manner. I always find its best to keep emotions out of it.
quote:
But, it's also a doctrinal statement ABOUT someone, and whenever you do that,
Actually he doesn't actually name you. He makes the statement about a set of beliefs and not individuals per say. And JPII was thoroughly agree.
quote:
I'm not sure how you could take it any other way.
How would JW's or oneness-pentacostals folks think of you trying say they have "odd" beliefs or any other protestant denom you don't agree with. How else is one suppose to guide the flock if you don't define what is right and wrong.
_____
quote:
Who is "You" in your sentence? i thought you meant Zhi and, knowing your.. well...usual well manners-challenged way, you implied that she thinks you are lesser Christian then P-s and that is mean. I explain to you why you are mistaken.
The you is Zhi and I know she says that other Christians are not lesser and I tried to point out that is not really possible from a doctrinal perspective. Please detach individual emotions. Have you ever read the bible answer man or the benny hinn thread around here?
Otis
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 8/2/2008 6:49:50 PM
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turretinfan
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a) I can confirm "Serafim Sarovsky" is (at least primarily) an Eastern Orthodox saint. I have seen his icon and read his biography.
b) Allergic to the pope? LOL!
The topic of the thread, "why do we need a pope," is probably the answer to the allergy question though: Here's a guy claiming to be the head of the church - who isn't! That kind of gumption can really get under the skin, leading to irritation, rashes, etc.: the 500 year itch.
And we scratch that itch with the sword of the Spirit: the Word of God.
-TurretinFan
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 8/2/2008 8:57:34 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1441
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quote:
Well I always see a baby boy--in your picture so...oops sorry.
Actually that's our daughter. Who is also a girl. hehehe
Granted she's rather lacking in the hair department, but it's getting better. The actual color of her jammies in the picture is a light purple, but it might look blue on some monitors I suppose.
quote:
That statement implied that many react to the pope almost in an irrational manner. I always find its best to keep emotions out of it.
That's kind of surprising, considering the emotional response you've had to some of my posts.
Religious beliefs are a deeply personal thing, or at least they SHOULD be. As such, you can't help but have emotions involved when someone is making value judgements regarding them.
quote:
Actually he doesn't actually name you. He makes the statement about a set of beliefs and not individuals per say. And JPII was thoroughly agree.
Well, no, but he does name the religious beliefs that I ascribe to, therefore anything that he says about those religious beliefs, he is by extension making a statement about my religious beliefs. Given that my religious beliefs are a large part of who I am, he's making a statement about me.
quote:
How would JW's or oneness-pentacostals folks think of you trying say they have "odd" beliefs or any other protestant denom you don't agree with. How else is one suppose to guide the flock if you don't define what is right and wrong.
It's funny that you said that emotion shouldn't play into it, yet you are having an apparent deep emotional reaction to my use of the word "odd". Perhaps you can understand my point now.
quote:
The you is Zhi and I know she says that other Christians are not lesser and I tried to point out that is not really possible from a doctrinal perspective. Please detach individual emotions. Have you ever read the bible answer man or the benny hinn thread around here?
From a doctrinal perspective we're all hopeless sinners saved by grace, which is what a Christian is. From a doctrinal perspective, God is working on all of us. Those are the metrics that are important. You can add further metrics if you would like, but don't be surprised if those metrics are considered insulting by others, especially when the metrics involve "my denomination is the only denomination that really knows what's going on and the rest of ya'll are just imperfect, bless your li'l hearts."
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 8/3/2008 5:07:04 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3886
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quote:
quote:
Oh, you little person! Probably "Hope" for a "Change", no ?
Maybe some just have a problem with authority.
People should have a problem with the authority of those who claim they get their authority from God when, in fact, they do not.
quote:
I find in my case that if I can get past my own personal pride and try a little humility now and then.... Personal pride and humility have nothing to do with placing yourself under the authority of an heirarchy whose claims are simply self-generated. Knowlege and a love for Scripture is definitely the greater necessary attribute in this scenario not humility.
Although, it is true that coming to the Bible and recognizing it is the only true Word of God does take humility.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 8/3/2008 10:33:57 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
O:
Oh, you little person! Probably "Hope" for a "Change", no?
K-man:
It's the more painful because I was once in line for the papacy...remember?
a couple of times actually...  i forgot though what exactly disqualified you from the final run.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 8/3/2008 10:39:04 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
a) I can confirm "Serafim Sarovsky" is (at least primarily) an Eastern Orthodox saint. I have seen his icon and read his biography.
b) Allergic to the pope? LOL!
The topic of the thread, "why do we need a pope," is probably the answer to the allergy question though: Here's a guy claiming to be the head of the church - who isn't! That kind of gumption can really get under the skin, leading to irritation, rashes, etc.: the 500 year itch.
And we scratch that itch with the sword of the Spirit: the Word of God.
-TurretinFan
Oh, Turret!! glad to see you. Appreciate the answer ab. S. Sarovsky - but i know for a fact the woman was Catholic. Wonder if E and C churches used to be closer and shared same Saints years ago maybe..
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 8/3/2008 10:47:33 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
The you is Zhi and I know she says that other Christians are not lesser and I tried to point out that is not really possible from a doctrinal perspective. Please detach individual emotions.
i will try my best. Doctrine minus emotions :) But if doctrinally there are no lesser Christians,do you also admit that a good mature christian leading life that demonstrates abandant fruit of Holy Spirit ( non catholic) can be more pleasing to God then "baby" (in a spiritual sense), nominal Catholic ? And the other way around.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 8/4/2008 12:51:30 AM
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texastweet
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quote:
Granted she's rather lacking in the hair department, but it's getting better. The actual color of her jammies in the picture is a light purple, but it might look blue on some monitors I suppose.
I have cueball daughter as well, and yes it does look blue, plus it looks like she is playing with some kind of construction/building toy to boot. But I'll ignore all that from now on 
quote:
Well, no, but he does name the religious beliefs that I ascribe to, therefore anything that he says about those religious beliefs, he is by extension making a statement about my religious beliefs. Given that my religious beliefs are a large part of who I am, he's making a statement about me.
You are here debating religious beliefs...so why would you be suprised someone doesn't agree with you? Would you have the Church ignore all that it thinks is wrong? Would you have tolded the gnostics and ariens, "good show, keep up the good fight"? Pastors try to call back those in error...I think we see plenty of that in the bible.
quote:
It's funny that you said that emotion shouldn't play into it, yet you are having an apparent deep emotional reaction to my use of the word "odd"
No, "odd" is used to symbolize your same criticism of others beliefs. You just try not to be as clear and direct as the Pope. How can one search for the truth when your primary principle is essentially, "I ok and your ok".
quote:
You can add further metrics if you would like, but don't be surprised if those metrics are considered insulting by others, especially when the metrics involve "my denomination is the only denomination that really knows what's going on and the rest of ya'll are just imperfect, bless your li'l hearts."
Pretty bold isn't it...maybe because there are some facts to back it up and to believe a system that was developed 1500 years after Jesus probably doesn't have a leg to stand on. But we still luv-ya!
Otis
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 8/4/2008 1:01:01 AM
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texastweet
Posts: 376
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quote:
i will try my best. Doctrine minus emotions :) But if doctrinally there are no lesser Christians,do you also admit that a good mature christian leading life that demonstrates abandant fruit of Holy Spirit ( non catholic) can be more pleasing to God then "baby" (in a spiritual sense), nominal Catholic ? And the other way around.
There are Christians that have a lesser understanding so I don't admit your first premise. As for trying to compare individuals that is not a very fruitfull effort. What is abundant fruit? What is nominal? Do you know the mind of God? From my perspective the Catholic always has the upper hand due to the fact they have the sacraments.
Otis
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 8/4/2008 1:48:52 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3886
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quote:
Would you have the Church ignore all that it thinks is wrong? Would you have tolded the gnostics and ariens, "good show, keep up the good fight"? Pastors try to call back those in error...I think we see plenty of that in the bible. That's precisely why the Prot's here write of the egregious errors of RC because they know there is no room for: "good show, keep up the good fight".
quote:
You just try not to be as clear and direct as the Pope. How can one search for the truth when your primary principle is essentially, "I ok and your ok". If you think that, then you haven't been reading the posts which oppose RC. Looks to me they've all been very clear and very direct.
quote:
Pretty bold isn't it...maybe because there are some facts to back it up and to believe a system that was developed 1500 years after Jesus probably doesn't have a leg to stand on. Well, "bold" isn't the word I'd choose.
The "system" is a pretty good one, it's called the inspired Word of God. Since you guys can't present anything inspired or authoritative and have simply "developed" your own church, we'll stick with what God actually did develope.
quote:
From my perspective the Catholic always has the upper hand due to the fact they have the sacraments. I wouldn't call that an "upper hand" since they are strictly denominational practices really having little to nothing to do with God. He never instituted the "sacraments" of RC.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 8/4/2008 6:31:38 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
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quote:
i forgot though what exactly disqualified you from the final run. Lord, strengthen me in my hour of temptation...
Everyone should take a turn at "fill in the blank" here...
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 8/4/2008 1:07:53 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2377
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Shmemptation. You are tougher then you think, Dog
I was jokingly hinting at the fact that our K-man is not a catholic anymore, so he cant be a Pope.
But what you need is a Jewish Pope next, beloved brethren, that's what i say you need. You haven't had one since Peter, and good ol' Pete didnt even know he was a Pope...
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 8/4/2008 2:31:28 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1441
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quote:
I have cueball daughter as well, and yes it does look blue, plus it looks like she is playing with some kind of construction/building toy to boot. But I'll ignore all that from now on
It's actually a Fisher Price farm set. Her grandpa is a farmer. hehehe
quote:
You are here debating religious beliefs...so why would you be suprised someone doesn't agree with you? Would you have the Church ignore all that it thinks is wrong? Would you have tolded the gnostics and ariens, "good show, keep up the good fight"? Pastors try to call back those in error...I think we see plenty of that in the bible.
I'm not surprised at all, no. I'm just saying that if you call into question the sincerity or legitimacy of faith of a large segment of people, don't be surprised if they're not terribly happy about it. Also don't be surprised if we in turn try to call you back in error.
quote:
No, "odd" is used to symbolize your same criticism of others beliefs. You just try not to be as clear and direct as the Pope. How can one search for the truth when your primary principle is essentially, "I ok and your ok".
My principle is not "I ok your ok" (sic) though. I've been as clear as I can be noting the places where I feel the Catholic Church (that being the topics in the various threads involved) is performing practices that appear to at best not appear in, at worst entirely contradict, the Scripture. These are the practices I refer to when I say "odd". But, inasmuch as both Catholics and Protestants rely on their trust in Jesus Christ as their means of salvation (which is determined on an individual basis), then those who do so are all "ok" to a salvic extent. Which is good.
quote:
Pretty bold isn't it...maybe because there are some facts to back it up and to believe a system that was developed 1500 years after Jesus probably doesn't have a leg to stand on. But we still luv-ya!
As opposed to the RCC system developed 1000 years after Jesus? What's a half-millenia between friends?
And, to point out yet again... if the RCC had not become so utterly corrupt, Protestantism would not have happened.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 8/5/2008 8:44:53 AM
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texastweet
Posts: 376
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quote:
As opposed to the RCC system developed 1000 years after Jesus? What's a half-millenia between friends?
And, to point out yet again... if the RCC had not become so utterly corrupt, Protestantism would not have happened.
Zhi,
In all my review of protestant apologetics I have never seen anyone use say the Catholic Church started in 1000. I suppose you could say something happened with respect to the papacy, though I would disagree, but there is so much more to the Catholic faith that were in action well before that.
I would say you second statement above in a way demonstrates that protestantism is not of divine origin and was developed by men who correctly or incorrectly assessed that the Church of the time "became" corrupt. Your not Lutheran so I assume you think that became corrupt as well. It again points to the fact that these kind of statements in effect say the Church did fail and Christs promises failed.
Otis
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 8/5/2008 9:01:03 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1441
Joined: 7/31/2007
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quote:
In all my review of protestant apologetics I have never seen anyone use say the Catholic Church started in 1000. I suppose you could say something happened with respect to the papacy, though I would disagree, but there is so much more to the Catholic faith that were in action well before that.
So you deny that doctrine at all developed over the past 2 millenia?
I could claim similarly that the Protestant faith started 2000 years ago by your metric, since we base our faith on the Bible, and not on a "Magisterium" of tradition that we've built up over the millenia.
quote:
I would say you second statement above in a way demonstrates that protestantism is not of divine origin and was developed by men who correctly or incorrectly assessed that the Church of the time "became" corrupt. Your not Lutheran so I assume you think that became corrupt as well. It again points to the fact that these kind of statements in effect say the Church did fail and Christs promises failed.
God "cleaning house" is not exactly an unusual thing, Biblically.
Did the Church fail? Well, the RCC failed, because the RCC is a construct of fallible men under oft-corrupted leadership. The Church, as the body of believers, did not fail, though, and the rejection of false doctrine and practice demonstrates that... so if anything, the fact that people could recognize that the presiding religious institution, battling frantically for power and monopoly, was wrong, means that Christ has been faithful to His promise to preserve His Word and His body.
I would note that Protestants were not alone in their conclusion that the RCC had become corrupt, as the RCC eventually did effect sweeping reforms. If only they had been more thorough.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 8/5/2008 1:53:55 PM
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texastweet
Posts: 376
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
So you deny that doctrine at all developed over the past 2 millenia?
Zhi,
This is another issue. You have yet to identify the details of how the RCC came about in your mind. Was there a declaration? What was Christianity before this time?
Anyway our doctrine has remained the same as a review of the early Church fathers attest to. Now you will say it has changed but imagine if you will that you only learned addition. Now if you later studied more and learned algebra, would you now say you changed or forgot addition or just understood math better? Same with the development of doctrine/dogma. The Church has always had 7 sacraments, etc and those dogmas have not changed. Now have things changed...of course but just in practice and not the dogmatic beliefs of the Catholic faith. The Pope uses a pope-mobile now for instance.
quote:
The Church, as the body of believers, did not fail, though, and the rejection of false doctrine and practice demonstrates that
What body? Please identify these people so we may test the verasity of their claims? What if you no longer follow the beliefs of these "believers" that thought they could just start from scratch--hence my Lutheran question that is still no answered. I don't recall that example from the bible. In fact the bible says it will guide us to all truth and Christ would be with us to the end of the age???
quote:
I would note that Protestants were not alone in their conclusion that the RCC had become corrupt, as the RCC eventually did effect sweeping reforms.
Reform is one thing, but revolution and rejection is something not found or expected in the bible.
Otis
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