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True revival - 10/17/2008 3:33:38 PM
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stateofgrace
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With all the hoopla this last summer regarding Lakeland, maybe it would be enlightening to discuss what constitutes true revival.
For example, Charles Finney wrote, “A revival always includes conviction of sin on the part of the Church. Backslidden professors cannot wake up and begin right away in the service of God, without deep searchings of heart. The fountains of sin need to be broken up. In a true revival, Christians are always brought under such conviction; they see their sins in such a light that often they find it impossible to maintain a hope of their acceptance with God. It does not always go to that extent, but there are always, in a genuine revival, deep convictions of sin, and often cases of abandoning all hope."
What do you think? Does true revival begin with US being deeply convicted of our own sins?
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RE: True revival - 10/17/2008 4:35:06 PM
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earthless
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Have read this thread?
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RE: True revival - 10/18/2008 11:35:10 PM
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RJR_fan
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Finney pioneered a whole set of techniques that skilled and unscrupulous demagogues could use to induce desired emotional states. Since, however, people eventually resent this kind of psychological rape, this violation of their persons, this manipulation, the long-range results are rotten. Finney himself confessed that the areas he'd "revived" were embittered against the gospel a few years later. Joe Smith was one of Finney's heirs.
But, in the short run, the "evangelist" gets the thrill of frog-marching his hypnotized subjects up to the front of the auditorium, to perform for the amusement of the audience.
An unlikely source made a good point. Most of the time, churches and areas that experience revival are worse off afterward. This gent suggests that the inappropriate harnessing of the second great awakening to Unitarian political crusades led to the war between the states, and 600,000 dead American men.
In the aftermath of the Pentecostal outpouring of a century ago, there came a wave of funerals. People trifled with God's holiness, and did not escape the consequences.
True revival, by contrast, does not rely upon smooth-tongued professionals, but upon God's Spirit at work through unlikely vessels. Newly converted hippies. A humble one-eyed black preacher.
Perhaps, we don't recognize real revival until 30 years after it's happened. Or so my pastor suggests.
Real revival, perhaps, is more of a bottom-up movement, that offers a larger piece of the action to everyday people.
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RE: True revival - 10/19/2008 9:32:36 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stateofgrace
What do you think? Does true revival begin with US being deeply convicted of our own sins?
True revival will only follow true repentance.
Conciction of sin does not necessarily bring repentance of sin.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: True revival - 10/19/2008 3:40:24 PM
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techne
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i would suggest that true revival also has noticeable effects on the community in which it occurs...it doesn't simply remain within the four walls of any particular church or churches. the impact, if it is truly spiritual, will have effects in the natural and touch and change our everyday living.
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RE: True revival - 10/19/2008 7:44:43 PM
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twincities
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may we pray for revival in our hearts, in our families, in our church, and in our community... Oh God may we be the Church you have called us to be. Let us walk in the fruit of Your Spirit. May the world see Jesus when they look at us. May we walk in your blessings fully.
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RE: True revival - 10/19/2008 7:49:49 PM
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stateofgrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: stateofgrace
What do you think? Does true revival begin with US being deeply convicted of our own sins?
True revival will only follow true repentance.
Conciction of sin does not necessarily bring repentance of sin.
Yes, I've been reading a lot about that recently - I picked up Mark Driscoll's Death by Love, which is in the form of a set of letters to people in his church, and that is one of the things he mentions repeatedly in the book.
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RE: True revival - 10/19/2008 7:51:07 PM
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stateofgrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: techne
i would suggest that true revival also has noticeable effects on the community in which it occurs...
Historically, that appears to be the case. I was reading about the Great Awakening this week, and the impact seen on communities where it occurred.
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RE: True revival - 10/20/2008 1:04:20 PM
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Child4Jesus
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True revival like others have said will follow repentance. It won't be only one person repenting either. It will be many a people. Returning to and coming to the Lord for the first time. It will affect the surroundings as well. It won't just be the four walls, or the park, or wherever the revival takes place.
It's not about seeking signs and wonders. It's not about seeking an experience.
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In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: True revival - 10/20/2008 1:25:11 PM
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stateofgrace
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Again, from a historical perspective, it seems that there often were "signs and wonders" related to revival and also emotional responses to revival - but neither was the focus of revival.
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RE: True revival - 10/20/2008 1:47:56 PM
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Lapidoth
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If the focus is not on the "foolishness of the cross" and the
depravity of man, there is no revival. Just great circus acts.
Thank the Lord our names are written in the Book of the Lamb
when we accept the blood sacrifice for our sins.
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RE: True revival - 10/20/2008 9:02:12 PM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
What do you think? Does true revival begin with US being deeply convicted of our own sins?
The problem with the Finney quote is -- it's not that hard to induce guilt feelings in a suggestible audience.
It's too easy to confuse cause with effect.
If true revival begins by deeply convicting us of our sins, well, suppose we sit around and morbidly obsess over our own shortcomings for a while. Will this result in revival? Or competitive self-righteousness? Finney was a master at browbeating and abusing his hearers, until he'd shamed and humiliated them into performing the actions he recommended -- eschewing coffee, for example. We all know what a horrible thing it is for Christians to drink coffee. Let alone the beer I'm about to enjoy.
How do we know when we've "repented" enough? If there is no revival going on, do we need to do extraordinary forms of repentance? Perhaps some form of penance? Flog ourselves? Wear a hair shirt?
How do we know if we're relying upon our own repentance, rather than upon the grace of God?
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Blogging my way through the Turkish New Testament
Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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RE: True revival - 10/21/2008 4:58:46 AM
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Liveloved
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quote:
With all the hoopla this last summer regarding Lakeland, maybe it would be enlightening to discuss what constitutes true revival.
For example, Charles Finney wrote, “A revival always includes conviction of sin on the part of the Church. Backslidden professors cannot wake up and begin right away in the service of God, without deep searchings of heart. The fountains of sin need to be broken up. In a true revival, Christians are always brought under such conviction; they see their sins in such a light that often they find it impossible to maintain a hope of their acceptance with God. It does not always go to that extent, but there are always, in a genuine revival, deep convictions of sin, and often cases of abandoning all hope."
What do you think? Does true revival begin with US being deeply convicted of our own sins?
You are wise to begin a discussion of true revival in light of prior discussions. 
I would say true revival begins with God, seeing God in all His holiness.
Just as Isaiah saw God high and lifted up, when any man sees God as He is, revival begins.
One cannot truly see God in the beauty of His holiness and not be brought to his knees.
One cannot truly see God and not see his own depravity.
Revive means to bring to life.
Revival is man seeing God, seeing himself, repenting and believing in God's remedy, Jesus, and being given LIFE.
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RE: True revival - 10/21/2008 10:23:10 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
How do we know when we've "repented" enough? If there is no revival going on, do we need to do extraordinary forms of repentance? Perhaps some form of penance? Flog ourselves? Wear a hair shirt?
If one has repented (changed thier mind about sin; turned from their wicked ways) then there is revival within that person, when two have repented then there is revival in both of those; and so on.
I realy do not under stand the levels of repentance you are talking about; Scripture addresses ony one leves. And your assertion that penance has anything to do with repenting of one's sins il ludacris at best.
Peter put it as well as it can be put.
When preaching the first sermon of the "Church age" the listeners were convicted of their wrong doing and asked what they should do? Peter answered;
(Act 2:38,39) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Long before this God spoke to Solomon and said this regarding repentance;
(2Ch 7:14) If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
Repentance (turning from one's wicked ways) has always been paramount in our relationship with God.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: True revival - 10/21/2008 11:22:16 AM
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stateofgrace
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RC, I think you are correct in one way...one either repents or does not. And conviction does not equal repentance. Repentance is another step.
However, one can repent of one thing, but still have other sin/issues in their lives that need to be addressed.
I don't think that God has some kind of level of repentance qualification for revival, though (as in, 50% of people in this particular church have to be convicted of 80% of their sins and walking in true repentance for 60% of their sins...and only then God will provide revival).
I think God desires people's hearts truly turned towards him, a willingness to be laid bare before God and convicted regarding those dark, troubling issues in our lives (I think I had a quote by Finney or someone else about things like pride and the like that many people don't even consider as being sins in their lives, but I can't find it now), and putting true effort into repentance...because repentance does take effort on our part.
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America Needs Revival. Will you commit to pray for it?
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RE: True revival - 10/21/2008 4:06:30 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stateofgrace
I don't think that God has some kind of level of repentance qualification for revival, though (as in, 50% of people in this particular church have to be convicted of 80% of their sins and walking in true repentance for 60% of their sins...and only then God will provide revival).
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but God;s standard for the Believer's repentance is 100%, no excuses, so variances. The Apostle John says so very plainly;
(1Jn 3:6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
(1Jn 3:7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
(1Jn 3:8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
(1Jn 3:9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(1Jn 3:10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Now a thrrough study of the Greek here means "Continuing in sin" or "Walking in sin", but the thrust of the passage and all of Scripture is repentance, or turning from all sin and turning to God. Period.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: True revival - 10/24/2008 9:08:16 PM
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gennaoanothen
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interesting question?
would the different denominations, argue over the revival?
the great awakening, that caused chaos within the denominations, many even today disagree with some of the things that took place, during the great awakening.
revival, perhaps that is when we can truly say from our heart, God create a right spirit within me, and then not resist the change, perhaps when we can love our brethren, even if they have differing theologies. perhaps when we can truly say, I do love you, God, with all my heart, knowing that God knows our hearts better than we, and would know if we told the truth.
perhaps, when we would truly be willing to do the things to please God, and die to ourselves, and the things of this world, knowing that only the kingdom of God matters, all else is vanity, and perishes.
I believe that God would have the church to have revival, but would the church really be willing to have revival? that is an honest question.
I want revival, God have your way, with and in me, do with me as you please, I am yours.
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RE: True revival - 10/24/2008 9:34:29 PM
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gennaoanothen
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gennaoanothen
interesting question?
would the different denominations, argue over the revival?
the great awakening, that caused chaos within the denominations, many even today disagree with some of the things that took place, during the great awakening.
revival, perhaps that is when we can truly say from our heart, God create a right spirit within me, and then not resist the change, perhaps when we can love our brethren, even if they have differing theologies. perhaps when we can truly say, I do love you, God, with all my heart, knowing that God knows our hearts better than we, and would know if we told the truth.
perhaps, when we would truly be willing to do the things to please God, and die to ourselves, and the things of this world, knowing that only the kingdom of God matters, all else is vanity, and perishes.
I believe that God would have the church to have revival, but would the church really be willing to have revival? that is an honest question.
I want revival, God have your way, with and in me, do with me as you please, I am yours.
I had noticed there was some mention of lake-land, not too sure what took place there, but I noticed on God tube, there is a video of some worshipping down at lake-land, the video was watched a lot on God tube, it really saddens my heart, that I can not find a church that can worship God like that, we really do need a revival. here is the link
lakeland God tube worship video link
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RE: True revival - 10/25/2008 10:17:14 AM
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GodsMusic
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genn, if you liked that video on Godtube, there's more. Just go to Youtube and type in Todd Bentley Exposed.
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RE: True revival - 10/25/2008 11:40:17 AM
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gennaoanothen
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
genn, if you liked that video on Godtube, there's more. Just go to Youtube and type in Todd Bentley Exposed.
thank you Godsmusic
I don't think revival is about todd bentley, I believe revival is about us, and our hearts, do we really love God, as we say?
I just noticed in that worship video from God tube link here there aparent love for God.
if these people are outside of truth, why can not we, as inside truth, worship God from our hearts, as they?
when I see alot of churches, the people seem to concerned with the time of day, etc. etc. have our hearts departed from God? I pray not.
did you view the video?
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RE: True revival - 10/27/2008 9:59:25 AM
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stateofgrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: stateofgrace
I don't think that God has some kind of level of repentance qualification for revival, though (as in, 50% of people in this particular church have to be convicted of 80% of their sins and walking in true repentance for 60% of their sins...and only then God will provide revival).
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but God;s standard for the Believer's repentance is 100%, no excuses, so variances. The Apostle John says so very plainly;
(1Jn 3:6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
(1Jn 3:7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
(1Jn 3:8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
(1Jn 3:9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(1Jn 3:10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Now a thrrough study of the Greek here means "Continuing in sin" or "Walking in sin", but the thrust of the passage and all of Scripture is repentance, or turning from all sin and turning to God. Period.
rc,
When I was referring to "level of repentance qualification for revival" - I was really meaning it in a corporate sense, not an individual sense - that there is no "formula" for how many/how much - because revival is corporate. We both agree (at least I think we do) that revival follows repentance, and therefore repentance needs to be focused on.
There will be some differences in specifics between someone coming from the holiness tradition and someone who is not. Because of the Greek, I believe that John was not referring to followers of Christ being absent of any sin, but instead not "continuing in sin"/"walking in sin." IOW, we will still sin from time to time, and we need to be open to God's conviction about those sins, and ready and willing to repent.
gennaoanothen,
One of the things we discussed around here at the time of the Lakeland stuff - pay attention to what people are focusing on in the singing as much as how fervent they are. In many cases with false revivals, the emphasis in the singing is focused on us - the people - receiving the Holy Spirit's power, manifestations...instead of worshiping God Himself.
"Intoxicate us, Lord. Inebriate us tonight..."
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RE: True revival - 10/27/2008 10:38:58 AM
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crankius
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Examine this revival in Nehemiah:
Taken from Nehemiah 8:
Now all the people gathered together as one man in the open square that was in front of the Water Gate; and they told Ezra the scribe to bring the Book of the Law of Moses, which the Lord had commanded Israel. So Ezra the priest brought the Law before the assembly of men and women and all who could hear with understanding on the first day of the seventh month. Then he read from it in the open square that was in front of the Water Gate from morning until midday, before the men and women and those who could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive to the Book of the Law.
...And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people, for he was standing above all the people; and when he opened it, all the people stood up. And Ezra blessed the Lord, the great God. Then all the people answered, "Amen, Amen!" while lifting up their hands. And they bowed their heads and worshiped the Lord with their faces to the ground.
...So they read distinctly from the book, in the Law of God; and they gave the sense, and helped them to understand the reading.
And Nehemiah, who was the governor, Ezra the priest and scribe, and the Levites who taught the people said to all the people, "This day is holy to the Lord your God; do not mourn nor weep." For all the people wept, when they heard the words of the Law.
And from Nehemiah 9:
Now on the twenty-fourth day of this month the children of Israel were assembled with fasting, in sackcloth, and with dust on their heads. Then those of Israelite lineage separated themselves from all foreigners; and they stood and confessed their sins and the iniquities of their fathers. And they stood up in their place and read from the Book of the Law of the Lord their God for one-fourth of the day; and for another fourth they confessed and worshiped the Lord their God.
It was the reading of God's words that brought true conviction, public confession, and repentance.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
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