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Third Wave of the Holy Spirit - Good or Evil - 10/13/2008 10:26:04 AM
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devere
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I would be very interested in opinions and reflections about the movement called the Third Wave of the Holy Spirit. I am well versed in traditional understandings on the war between principalities and powers.
However, as a father of a teenager, I have become concerned about the effect it is having on our teenagers. Our exposure to it appears to be stimulating a perverse interest in the occult and demonism, almost at the level of a "Christian pornography." I have actually some teens who had absolutely no awareness move to paganism as a result
Any other similar or contrary experiences would be appreciated
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RE: Third Wave of the Holy Spirit - Good or Evil - 10/13/2008 12:45:38 PM
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ta_mosquito
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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Moving this from Prophecy & End Times to The Church.
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RE: Third Wave of the Holy Spirit - Good or Evil - 10/13/2008 2:20:18 PM
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devere
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Thanks for the info Peter and for the proper redirecting of this topic
God Bless you
devere
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RE: Third Wave of the Holy Spirit - Good or Evil - 10/13/2008 4:00:00 PM
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earthless
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What specific questions do you have?
The movement is lead and ripe with false prophets and false teachers. Adherents to some very wacky and at times downright heretical doctrines.
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RE: Third Wave of the Holy Spirit - Good or Evil - 10/13/2008 8:15:30 PM
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prophet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
The movement is lead and ripe with false prophets and false teachers. Adherents to some very wacky and at times downright heretical doctrines.
Nice summary! 
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Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Third Wave of the Holy Spirit - Good or Evil - 10/13/2008 10:16:04 PM
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Godhead
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I am completely apposed to this focus on the Holy Spirit. For it seems to be focusing on the supernatural and experiences more then Faith in the Gospel. The power of God is in the Armor of God. None of which implies a supernatural experience. It seems that every man and his dog is receiving revelations from God, these days.
_____________________________
There is too much truth in that common proverb, “The nearer the church, the further from God;” it is pity it should be so. (Matthew Henry commentary)
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RE: Third Wave of the Holy Spirit - Good or Evil - 10/14/2008 3:08:25 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 833
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From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:
I would be very interested in opinions and reflections about the movement called the Third Wave of the Holy Spirit. I am well versed in traditional understandings on the war between principalities and powers.
However, as a father of a teenager, I have become concerned about the effect it is having on our teenagers. Our exposure to it appears to be stimulating a perverse interest in the occult and demonism, almost at the level of a "Christian pornography." I have actually some teens who had absolutely no awareness move to paganism as a result
Any other similar or contrary experiences would be appreciated I've been in a couple churches that would be indentified with the "third wave" crowd. As a movement, it isn't that different from any other movement within the church... it has it's bright spots and it's dark spots. It saddens me to hear that you know teenagers that have slid into paganism, but that isn't even close to unique to the Third Wave crew. I've been in firey holiness churches that have had members of the youth group drop out to become Goths and ravers. So realistically, it doesn't shock me too much to hear.quote:
What specific questions do you have?
The movement is lead and ripe with false prophets and false teachers. Adherents to some very wacky and at times downright heretical doctrines.
Which, once again, is pretty much true of every single movement within the church. Read the theological ramblings of Finney, Edwards and Whitfield, and you will find that they had some rather interesting quirks as well.quote:
Is this a thread about ska music? ... Don't I wish......quote:
I am completely apposed to this focus on the Holy Spirit. For it seems to be focusing on the supernatural and experiences more then Faith in the Gospel. The power of God is in the Armor of God. None of which implies a supernatural experience. It seems that every man and his dog is receiving revelations from God, these days. At first I was trying to decide how I was supposed to respond to this... and I guess I just find it intriguing that you are opposed to the focus on God in the Church. Remembering that the Holy Spirit is God, it is about time we started focusing on Him...
What we really need to remember is that the Bible is not what works salvation. It is the actual bood of Christ that buys our forgiveness, and there is nothing to match the supernaturality of the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Our faith is based entirely on the supernatural (Christ's earthly life) and the marrying of the supernatural to the natural (the eschaton). To say that focusing on the supernatural is in error is to say that you as a Christian shouldn't focus on Christianity.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Third Wave of the Holy Spirit - Good or Evil - 10/14/2008 4:03:18 AM
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1love1God1way
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Goodness. We're on wave number three already? Where have I been?
I'm still wearing my "Holy Spirit: Better the Second Time Around" t-shirt. I need to catch up with the times.
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love.ben
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RE: Third Wave of the Holy Spirit - Good or Evil - 10/14/2008 7:55:09 AM
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the_silver_cup
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quote:
ORIGINAL: devere
I would be very interested in opinions and reflections about the movement called the Third Wave of the Holy Spirit. I am well versed in traditional understandings on the war between principalities and powers.
However, as a father of a teenager, I have become concerned about the effect it is having on our teenagers. Our exposure to it appears to be stimulating a perverse interest in the occult and demonism, almost at the level of a "Christian pornography." I have actually some teens who had absolutely no awareness move to paganism as a result
Any other similar or contrary experiences would be appreciated
I attended a church where we were told our purpose was to oppose a "religious principality" over our city. Of course "religious spirits" were opposed to our group. This was all imaginary. Nowhere in the Bible do we see a "religious spirit" or principality.
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RE: Third Wave of the Holy Spirit - Good or Evil - 10/14/2008 8:27:38 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: the_silver_cup
quote:
ORIGINAL: devere
I would be very interested in opinions and reflections about the movement called the Third Wave of the Holy Spirit. I am well versed in traditional understandings on the war between principalities and powers.
However, as a father of a teenager, I have become concerned about the effect it is having on our teenagers. Our exposure to it appears to be stimulating a perverse interest in the occult and demonism, almost at the level of a "Christian pornography." I have actually some teens who had absolutely no awareness move to paganism as a result
Any other similar or contrary experiences would be appreciated
I attended a church where we were told our purpose was to oppose a "religious principality" over our city. Of course "religious spirits" were opposed to our group. This was all imaginary. Nowhere in the Bible do we see a "religious spirit" or principality.
Didn't you know your can of Coke can have a demonic spirit?!
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Third Wave of the Holy Spirit - Good or Evil - 10/14/2008 9:20:37 AM
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the_silver_cup
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Didn't you know your can of Coke can have a demonic spirit?!
Ha.
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RE: Third Wave of the Holy Spirit - Good or Evil - 10/14/2008 4:01:10 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
I am completely apposed to this focus on the Holy Spirit. For it seems to be focusing on the supernatural and experiences more then Faith in the Gospel. The power of God is in the Armor of God. None of which implies a supernatural experience. It seems that every man and his dog is receiving revelations from God, these days.
I'm no 3rd waver but this is too much. Are you looking for literal armor here? No supernatural experience? Unfortunatley you would appear to believe that the word supernatural is evil only in it's context. God IS Spirit, not flesh and blood and ANY interaction with Him is going to be SUPERNATURAL.
quote:
1. of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.
2. of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or attributed to God or a deity.
3. of a superlative degree; preternatural: a missile of supernatural speed.
4. of, pertaining to, or attributed to ghosts, goblins, or other unearthly beings; eerie; occult.
–noun 5. a being, place, object, occurrence, etc., considered as supernatural or of supernatural origin; that which is supernatural, or outside the natural order.
6. behavior supposedly caused by the intervention of supernatural beings.
7. direct influence
The ONLY way we can know God at all is compliments of His Holy Spirit. The HOLY SPIRIT is the ONE that JESUS sent back to earth...for us
we are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we accept Christ as Savior and believe in His atoning work for us. Stop bashing everything because of extremists. Apparently, those folks live on both sides of the border.
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RE: Third Wave of the Holy Spirit - Good or Evil - 10/14/2008 4:14:02 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
I would be very interested in opinions and reflections about the movement called the Third Wave of the Holy Spirit.
Seriously, I doubt that the initial outpouring (Pentecost) has had to have any improvement any more than Jesus needs to keep going back and forth from heaven to earth. The Third Wave is a name contrived to employ the imaginations of people needing excitement and 'reality' Holy Ghost impartations that do not exist save in the minds of those gainfully employed thereby. The reality that we already have, is sufficient and if ever expressed in the manner indicated in the documents we already have, otherwise known as the Bible, would prove to be superior to these man made models expressive of all of man's foibles and failings.
This translates in a practical sense as follows:
1) The Holy Spirit will not lead you into demonic activities and superfluous spiritual activities nor will He add to God's Word or encourage experience over same
2) Many moves today (inc the one in question) encourage experience over the Word and the waters get deeper all the time, as is the norm for all occultic activity.
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RE: Third Wave of the Holy Spirit - Good or Evil - 10/14/2008 4:33:34 PM
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earthless
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God is not obligated to protect people from bad doctrine. We have no excuse, we have the full Word of God readily available.
The result of taking cyanide is the same for the Christian or the atheist.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Third Wave of the Holy Spirit - Good or Evil - 10/16/2008 9:20:39 PM
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Godhead
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AMEN TO THAT! Good one earthless
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? (Job 1:8)
Unlike Abraham and Moses, Job was a man who had never heard the voice of God, had never seen a miracle, or some supernatural thing. All He had to go on was the knowledge of God at that time. Yet he was highly praised by God and also God called Job His servant. How much more do we know now, how much more does the scriptures reveal to us today? God teaches us by his servant Job what really matters, and that is fearing God and eschewing evil. This should be enough for every Christian. Miracles and hearing the voice of God, are not necessary in our relationship to God. They are not needed for a person to be a great man or woman of God, and no excuse not to be a great Christian. God does not look for people who are obsessed with miracles or the supernatural, but notices people who fear Him and eschew evil. So we see now what it is to serve God, and what God wants of us. People who look for miracles are in this business for the wrong reasons. Those seeking after miracles or revelations have the wrong attitude. Not always necessarily evil, but only misguided. There are far to many fools teaching the wrong things, and catering to this misguided idea of what it means to be a Christian. From Job we can see that God takes notice of those who fear Him and eschews evil not ones who are obsessed with miracles. God did not say to Satan, "See my servant Job, he is obsessed with miracles, always seeking a sign, always wanting to feel some spiritual phenomena. Always wanting to hear my voice and be entertained in some way." No instead Job was a true man of God, one that feared the Lord and eschews evil. Basically, a true man of God then is not one who is obsessed with the supernatural or the miraculous, but one who obeys.
_____________________________
There is too much truth in that common proverb, “The nearer the church, the further from God;” it is pity it should be so. (Matthew Henry commentary)
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RE: Third Wave of the Holy Spirit - Good or Evil - 10/16/2008 9:36:20 PM
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Godhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
quote:
I am completely apposed to this focus on the Holy Spirit. For it seems to be focusing on the supernatural and experiences more then Faith in the Gospel. The power of God is in the Armor of God. None of which implies a supernatural experience. It seems that every man and his dog is receiving revelations from God, these days.
At first I was trying to decide how I was supposed to respond to this... and I guess I just find it intriguing that you are opposed to the focus on God in the Church. Remembering that the Holy Spirit is God, it is about time we started focusing on Him...
What we really need to remember is that the Bible is not what works salvation. It is the actual blood of Christ that buys our forgiveness, and there is nothing to match the supernaturally of the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Our faith is based entirely on the supernatural (Christ's earthly life) and the marrying of the supernatural to the natural (the eschaton). To say that focusing on the supernatural is in error is to say that you as a Christian shouldn't focus on Christianity.
Adam
There is a big difference in seeking the propitiation and expiation that we have in the blood of Christ and seeking after the supernatural. There is a big difference in seeking forgiveness and peace with God and seeking experience in the spirit realm. None has to do with the other, and none is dependant on the other, and only one has to do with Christianity. The other is of the occult and has its origins there, and not in what Christ has done for us all on the cross, by his suffering and death. It is one thing to believe in the gospel to be saved and to win people to Christ, but it is another thing to preach the Gospel, to get people to follow the occult. Some preach the gospel to win souls, while some preach the gospel to entice unwary souls to practice sorcery and witchcraft. They use the Gospel as bait, on the hook of occultism. One is to love the truth, while the other is to love a lie. The Devil mixes lies with the truth, in the hope to deceive even the elect if possible.
_____________________________
There is too much truth in that common proverb, “The nearer the church, the further from God;” it is pity it should be so. (Matthew Henry commentary)
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RE: Third Wave of the Holy Spirit - Good or Evil - 10/17/2008 4:18:18 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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quote:
Unlike Abraham and Moses, Job was a man who had never heard the voice of God, had never seen a miracle, or some supernatural thing. You mean, until God Himself descended in a whirlwind to speak to Job at the end of the Book? Yeah... Shall we also remember that all of Job's troubles were of supernatural origin?quote:
God teaches us by his servant Job what really matters, and that is fearing God and eschewing evil. This should be enough for every Christian. Miracles and hearing the voice of God, are not necessary in our relationship to God. There are so many better examples you could give... Ecclesiastes 12 being one of them... I am somewhat surprised that you decided to make your case with Job, who had some of the highest personal revelatory experiences in the entire Bible.
It is true, what truly matters is fearing God and shunning evil. However, that does not change the fact that God is a supernatural being and any communion with Him is, by definition, of the supernatural realm. Considering that we are heading towards a return to Edenic conditions with physically walking with God, having "experience" isn't entirely "unnecessary" either. The 12 disciples had visions and trances, the patriarchs and prophets had Theophanies and miraculous intervention of God. That is out example. As for hearing the voice of God... if you are a Christian, you had better. Jesus Himself said that His sheep hear His voice. Take it up with Him.quote:
People who look for miracles are in this business for the wrong reasons. Those seeking after miracles or revelations have the wrong attitude. So it is wrong to ask for God to heal, or to speak to us? I think not. But that falls under "seeking miracles". I think the difference to be noted is are we asking because we think God owes us, or are we asking because we trust that He is a good Father who loves to give good gifts to His children?quote:
There is a big difference in seeking the propitiation and expiation that we have in the blood of Christ and seeking after the supernatural. There is a big difference in seeking forgiveness and peace with God and seeking experience in the spirit realm. None has to do with the other, and none is dependant on the other, and only one has to do with Christianity. Dare I say that Moses specifically asked God to see the Glory of God? Dare I say that Moses and Joshua went to the tent of meeting to speak with the physical presence of the uncreated God of all?
I agree that being obsessed with the supernatural is dangerous. However, God is supernatural. If we relate to Him AT ALL it has to be on the supernatural level. We have this odd idea in the Western Church that the salvation experience is the height of the Christian life, and it just isn't true. Salvation is important... deathly so. But it isn't the height of all that is attainable in the Christian lifestyle. Salvation is the narrow door to a broad pasture of the knowledge of God, and yet so many are content with entering through the gate and then stopping to admire the gate-- never exploring the broad pasture that God has provided us with.
Proposing that the supernatural is diameterically opposed to Christendom entirely debases the Incarnation, salvation, and the Eschaton. To that end, we have swallowed a version of Christianity that has one aim... get converts and go to heaven. Jesus didn't say "evangelize all nations" in the Great Commission, He said to go and "make disciples". If we only ever talk to God about our sins, what will we talk with Him about when we get to eternity and there is no more sin? Honestly, we need to start contemplating what was meant when the Bible declares that "eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor has entered into the heart of man what God has prepared for those who Love Him." God's heart of Love for the sinner and the message of salvation is intensely important to the Christian faith because it is the door that we all must enter... Yet there is so much more to God than the forgivness of sins.
God has an incredible ocean of Love that we will never find the bottom of, and salvation is getting out of our boat... the Christian walk is intended to be a progressive drowning in that ocean. To that end, what do we do with verses where it is declared that "these signs shall follow those that believe"? Considering that God has given gifts unto all and will not give us a stone when we ask for bread, seeking after God's revelatory nature is catagorically not occultic.
Please, let us not cheapen the true occult by saying that those who ask God to act in the here and now are actually occultic. There are people worshipping Satan, and you want to come down on Christians for believing that God speaks to those that He loves? It makes absolutely no sense to me.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Third Wave of the Holy Spirit - Good or Evil - 10/17/2008 9:08:00 PM
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Godhead
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It concerns me that many Christians are willing to reject sound doctrine for experience. There is a very popular church in Australia that has been exposed for its occult practices. Still it members will accept that for the great experience that they have in the meetings. One fellow that I know very well told me that. "You can feel the Holy spirit and the Love for God in the meetings." He is willing to ignore the unsavory practices of the Church for some experience, that he perceives as the Holy Spirit. When I told him that I do not like the church, he told me that I shouldn't be too picky when it comes to church. Basically he is telling me that it is the experience that determines the worth of the church not its practices. This idea of invoking the Holy Spirit is an occult practice. Chanting, and trying to invoke Him or create an atmosphere where the Holy Spirit would fill the place. This is what this movement is doing, and passing the experience off as the Holy Spirit. This experience has no real power to transform people into living godly lives in Christ Jesus. That only comes through study of God's word and time. This experience, instead has lead the church into all sorts of weird and wacky doctrines, beliefs about spiritual warfare, and an unhealthy focus on the supernatural. Its taken Christianity and its real power (To transform sinners into Saints) and has turned it into something entirely different. And its all based on this experience that they have and use to convert others. People are thinking, or at least telling others, that this experience is drawing near to God, and yet their lives are anything but godly, and their hearts are anything but near to God. The Holy spirit has nothing to do with all this loud music and shouts of praise. It has nothing to do with concerts and singing. The Holy Spirit is incredibly gentle and is not found to inhabited the noise of the world. (1Kings 19:11-12) Praise does not invoke the holy spirit but obedience to Christ. If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. (John 14:15-18) Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. (James 4:7-10) Experience is in the flesh and of the world and as James said, true religion is to keeps ones self unspotted by the world. (James 1:27) Talk about experience and they will love it, but talk about obedience and that's another story altogether. This new wave of the Holy Spirit is exercising lip service not heart service.
_____________________________
There is too much truth in that common proverb, “The nearer the church, the further from God;” it is pity it should be so. (Matthew Henry commentary)
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RE: Third Wave of the Holy Spirit - Good or Evil - 10/17/2008 9:24:10 PM
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Godhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
You mean, until God Himself descended in a whirlwind to speak to Job at the end of the Book? Yeah... Shall we also remember that all of Job's troubles were of supernatural origin?
Adam
All of which was bought on by Satan.
None of those things such as heeling's and great miracles are happening in the church. Just counterfeit miracles, pretend ones. God did descend from heaven and appear to Job, and one day Christ will as well, but until then we must be like Job, endure and fear God. God only received Job and accepted Job because of that. they who persevere unto the end shall be saved. Putting on a big show does not impress God, and has no great reward attached to it.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(Mat 7:21-23)
People cannot do fake miracles, and claim great things in the name of God and expect some reward. This new movement has no power, it is just all noise and all talk nothing more then that.
_____________________________
There is too much truth in that common proverb, “The nearer the church, the further from God;” it is pity it should be so. (Matthew Henry commentary)
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RE: Third Wave of the Holy Spirit - Good or Evil - 10/19/2008 8:20:46 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 833
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From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:
It concerns me that many Christians are willing to reject sound doctrine for experience. There is a very popular church in Australia that has been exposed for its occult practices. Still it members will accept that for the great experience that they have in the meetings. That is a very broad brush with which to paint an entire group of people. For example, not all Liberals are communists... not all Republicans are racists. It is the marrying of the Supernatural experience and the solid Biblical Foundation that creates what we like to refer to as "Genuine Christianity".
However, it is an extreme reaction to Gnostic thought that teaches that anything Spiritual is inherently Evil. If we look in the Bible, we will see countless times that God breaks into the space and time continuum and does something astounding. To then say that God does not do so now is to indicate a radical shift in His character that you cannot support Biblically. I will not deny that there are churches that have fallen off the road and gone into cultic practice. However, that does not negate the fact that God is supernatural so we must be a supernatural people... If, that is, we believe that God does in fact live with us. If God lives with us and still acts in the physical life, then we should not be taken aback by the Supernatural. Dare I mention that in First Corinthians, Paul told the Corinthians to earnestly desire spiritual gifts? Spiritual Gifts, including the more dynamic ones (such as healing and the prophetic) are in fact for the Church... and then we say that they are off limits because some people abuse them.
Truly enough... many do have strange ideas about Spiritual Warfare... but at least they haven't surrendered to the forces of darkness.quote:
The Holy spirit has nothing to do with all this loud music and shouts of praise. It has nothing to do with concerts and singing. The Holy Spirit is incredibly gentle and is not found to inhabited the noise of the world. (1Kings 19:11-12) So... you use a passage of God Himself speaking to a man in real space and time (proving that God has no aversion to using Supernatural means to communicate) to say that God has a problem with loud Music? Take a look at Revelation 4 and 5... God surrounds Himself with 100 million angels who are all singing and praising God. So no, I don't think your passage does anything to prove your intended point.quote:
If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. (John 14:15-18) Great Verse... but you aren't proving your point. Praise was referenced in the Psalms long before Christ came around... so your definition doesn't work either. quote:
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. (James 4:7-10) Amen... Let us not forget that this is the same God will return in the Isaiah 60 kind of way.quote:
Experience is in the flesh and of the world and as James said, true religion is to keeps ones self unspotted by the world. (James 1:27) I totally agree with James... true religion is to plead the cause of the widow and the downtrodden. However, this does not change the miracles that were performed in the Gospel account and the Acts narrative in any way. Nor does it change the fact that when Solomon was dedicating the Temple that the very presence of God descended so heavily that the Priest's could not stand to minister before the Lord.quote:
Talk about experience and they will love it, but talk about obedience and that's another story altogether. This new wave of the Holy Spirit is exercising lip service not heart service. If you memorize the entire Biblebut do not have a burning heart of love for God, you will burn out and get bitter. If you do nothing but seek encounter you will not grow spiritually. You cannot throw the baby out with the bathwater.quote:
All of which was bought on by Satan. Then you and I are not reading the same book of Job... It seems to me that God initiates the whole encounter, and then takes blame for Job's troubles. quote:
None of those things such as heeling's and great miracles are happening in the church. Just counterfeit miracles, pretend ones. Based on what? Vain philosophy, man's traditions, and miscontextualized verses? There are massive revivals underway in Mozambique and China, both bearing witness by the Power of the Spirit with healings, resurrections, and scores of new converts.quote:
God did descend from heaven and appear to Job, and one day Christ will as well, but until then we must be like Job, endure and fear God. God only received Job and accepted Job because of that. they who persevere unto the end shall be saved. Putting on a big show does not impress God, and has no great reward attached to it.
I'm not saying that we should not endure and fear God. I am saying that God is a good father who gives good gifts to his Children. If we ask for fish, He will not give us a stone. You can harp on Job all day, but that doesn't change all the other men and women of the Bible who had incredible encounters with the Power of God. Moses, Elijah, Elisha, John, Peter, Paul, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Habakkuk... the list goes on. In fact, you would be very hard pressed indeed to find someone in the Bible who was a person of God who does not have the testimony of an encounter with the God of all Power at some point. And then the Western Church teaches that the highest form of faith is to live devoid of encounter............... as if our faith is any greater or stronger than those who actually walked with Christ for three years.quote:
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(Mat 7:21-23)
People cannot do fake miracles, and claim great things in the name of God and expect some reward. This new movement has no power, it is just all noise and all talk nothing more then that.
However, there is something very interesting about the verses you quoted. "Not every one that says unto me..." So not everyone who says that will enter the Kingdom of Heaven... but some will. If Jesus meant that no one who claims to be a miracle worker will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, He would have said that no one would.
Your quoted verses are not proving your position... so I'm not really worried. In fact, lets throw a wrinkle in here... Peter gets arrested and put in prison. We all know the story, an angel comes down and leads Peter out of prison, past four armed guards (without them noticing), and out into the street. Peter goes to a House that he knows has a church and knocks on the door. The servant girl sees Peter and runs back into the house to tell everyone that Peter is out there. Why would they assume that it was actually Peter's angel if angelic appearances never happened to the church? Personally, I would have been surprised and asked Peter how he got out... but they thought it was his angel. We discount the Supernatural far too easily.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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That is a good example of the foolish doctrines that has come out of this Holy Spirit craze (Which is not from the Holy spirit) Jesus said that it is not what you put in your mouth that defiles the person, but what comes out of the heart.