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Salvation by Faith? - 11/4/2008 5:29:33 AM
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Leviticus26
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Is Baptism a Condition for belonging to Christ, or an Indication? I have the view that salvation is not linked to Baptism, as in you can have the Holy Spirit without being baptized, what are your views on this subject? Baptism to me is a outward expression of your old life being washed away, then rising into your new life under the Blood of Christ, the Blood that covers over our fall. Is faith enough, or do you HAVE to be Baptized to see the Kingdom?
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RE: Salvation by Faith? - 11/4/2008 8:35:58 AM
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DaveW
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You actually have several different questions here. The problem is you are trying to sub-divide different things that in the biblical text were never meant to be divided.
Is baptism required for salvation? No and yes. Primarily NO because we are saved by faith, not works. Yes, because James reminds us faith without works is dead and to not be baptized after placing faith in Messiah/Christ calls into question whether we really have put faith in HIM.
Repentance, believing the gospel, being baptized and receiving the Holy Spirit were all supposed to be together; a package deal.
Mar 1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."
Act 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
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RE: Salvation by Faith? - 11/4/2008 11:44:30 AM
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LCannon
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Water baptism was a common practice confirming agreement with a teacher/teaching as with John the Baptist. In the same way,(Christian)baptism is identification with Jesus' obedience/Victory and his teaching.
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RE: Salvation by Faith? - 11/4/2008 3:04:04 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Repentance, believing the gospel, being baptized and receiving the Holy Spirit were all supposed to be together; a package deal.
Amen, brother. I heartily agree with you on this.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation by Faith? - 11/9/2008 1:08:08 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
Repentance, believing the gospel, being baptized and receiving the Holy Spirit were all supposed to be together; a package deal.
True. However, the heart of the issue is whether or not a sinner is justified by grace through faith, plus nothing. And Scripture is crystal clear that when a sinner believes the Gospel, his or her faith is imputed to them for righteousness. This is critical.
Imputed righteousness means that God's own absolute righteousness is put to our acccount solely because we believe Him. We are to believe what God says through Paul in Romans 4:2-5:
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness".
One must study Romans 3:21 - 5:21 to get the whole teaching, which corresponds to what Christ taught in John 6:29: This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.
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Being baptized in water is an act of obedience which follows justification by faith, just as Abrahams obedience in sacrificing Isaac followed his justification by faith. In the eyes of man, this was proof of his justification, but in the eyes of God, it was his faith by which he was justified. Thus it is with baptism.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation by Faith? - 11/9/2008 8:07:34 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Repentance, believing the gospel, being baptized and receiving the Holy Spirit were all supposed to be together; a package deal.
True. However, the heart of the issue is whether or not a sinner is justified by grace through faith, plus nothing. And Scripture is crystal clear that when a sinner believes the Gospel, his or her faith is imputed to them for righteousness. This is critical.
I agree with you, until the words "plus nothing." I agree that we are justified by grace through faith, however, I see nowhere in Scripture where it says that we are justified by grace through faith, plus nothing. While I may agree that there is nothing else that justifies us, I'd feel real uncomfortable adding the words "plus nothing" to the concept when Scripture doesn't add them.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation by Faith? - 11/9/2008 8:16:04 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Being baptized in water is an act of obedience which follows justification by faith, just as Abrahams obedience in sacrificing Isaac followed his justification by faith. In the eyes of man, this was proof of his justification, but in the eyes of God, it was his faith by which he was justified. Thus it is with baptism.
I agree that baptism is an act of obedience. I don't think it follows justification by faith, though, I think justification by faith occurs at the same time that we are baptized. I mean, I imagine there are some people who believe but are not justified. Seems to me that baptism seals the deal so to speak. I'm NOT saying that baptism justifies us, though.
On another subject, I'm not totally convinced in my own mind that we can compare the faith of Abraham, as great as it was, with the faith of a Christian, since the object of our faith is somewhat different than the object of Abraham's faith. I dunno though, maybe the object of faith has no bearing on the outcome of faith, but I suppose that's a topic for another thread. 
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation by Faith? - 11/9/2008 4:43:07 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
I'd feel real uncomfortable adding the words "plus nothing" to the concept when Scripture doesn't add them.
I can agree with that. The "plus nothing" was more for clarity than for adding to what the Word says.
quote:
I dunno though, maybe the object of faith has no bearing on the outcome of faith, but I suppose that's a topic for another thread.
Actually, the object of our faith has a tremendously significant bearing on the outcome of our faith.
If the object of our faith is not the Lord God Almighty Himself, then it is of little or no consequence. If we keep in mind that the object of the Christian's faith is Christ, and that He is also "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" (since He calls Himself "I AM" in Jn. 8:58) than the object of Abraham's faith was Christ.
Also, since no man has seen God the Father at any time (Jn. 1:18), we may conclude that when Abraham spoke with God face to face, he was speaking with the Word (the Son). We read in Gen. 15:1 "After these things the Word of the LORD [the Word of YHWH] came unto Abram in a vision saying, Fear not, I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward".
This is a remarkable statement, and the translators should have capitalized "Word", since this is indeed the eternal Word of God (Christ) coming to Abram in a vision and saying that He Himself is Abraham's shield and exceeding great reward. Otherwise how can "the word" say such a thing? It would have to be either God or God the Word.
And Abraham rejoiced to "see" Christ's day (Jn. 8:56), which means that Abraham was aware of much that we are not told directly in the OT, but indirectly in the NT. Abraham looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God (Heb. 11:10). Abraham saw the New Jerusalem in a vision or through a revelation from Christ, but this is not recorded in the OT.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Salvation by Faith? - 12/3/2008 9:50:39 PM
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OleFitzHi
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It is interesting as to why this question keeps coming up...Is it philosophical debate or is there a real issue behind it?
Can you be saved without getting baptized? Of course. But if you had the opportunity to be baptized, why would you refuse? Does anyone ever profess faith in Christ and then refused to be baptized in His name? I've never heard of anyone. This seems to be a non-issue.
Can you be baptized without getting saved? Of course. It's called a bath. This seems to be a real issue. There are millions of professing Christians who have placed faith (I think maybe) in a baptism.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leviticus26
Is Baptism a Condition for belonging to Christ, or an Indication? I have the view that salvation is not linked to Baptism, as in you can have the Holy Spirit without being baptized, what are your views on this subject? Baptism to me is a outward expression of your old life being washed away, then rising into your new life under the Blood of Christ, the Blood that covers over our fall. Is faith enough, or do you HAVE to be Baptized to see the Kingdom?
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RE: Salvation by Faith? - 12/4/2008 3:35:57 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OleFitzHi
It is interesting as to why this question keeps coming up...Is it philosophical debate or is there a real issue behind it?
The issue behind it is this -- what is the Scriptural purpose of baptism? In many churches today baptism is nothing more than a symbol and a step of obedience in the Christian life. Scripture places much more meaning into baptism than that.
quote:
Can you be saved without getting baptized? Of course. But if you had the opportunity to be baptized, why would you refuse? Does anyone ever profess faith in Christ and then refused to be baptized in His name? I've never heard of anyone. This seems to be a non-issue.
The reason it's not a non-issue is because there are those who will disagree with your answer to the question "Can you be saved without getting baptized." There are no examples of salvation in the book of Acts not being linked with baptism.
quote:
Can you be baptized without getting saved? Of course. It's called a bath. This seems to be a real issue. There are millions of professing Christians who have placed faith (I think maybe) in a baptism.
Sadly, this could be all too true.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation by Faith? - 12/8/2008 10:13:56 AM
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kiwihawaii
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Naaman, the Syrian, did not believe the word of God that came through Elisha who said to go and to wash in the Jordan to be purified. Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? 2Ki 5, 12. The almighty God could have cleaned Naaman directly without Naaman going in the Jordan and washing himself. Indeed, nothing is impossible to God. Why was the washing in the Jordan water needed? The truth is that God often required simple acts of faith from us before intervening in our life.
quote:
And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him Luc 7, 29-30.
We are saved by grace, justified by faith and will be judged by the love of our works.
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RE: Salvation by Faith? - 12/8/2008 7:49:31 PM
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OleFitzHi
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What is wrong with viewing baptism as a symbolic act of obedience?
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: OleFitzHi
It is interesting as to why this question keeps coming up...Is it philosophical debate or is there a real issue behind it?
The issue behind it is this -- what is the Scriptural purpose of baptism? In many churches today baptism is nothing more than a symbol and a step of obedience in the Christian life. Scripture places much more meaning into baptism than that.
quote:
Can you be saved without getting baptized? Of course. But if you had the opportunity to be baptized, why would you refuse? Does anyone ever profess faith in Christ and then refused to be baptized in His name? I've never heard of anyone. This seems to be a non-issue.
The reason it's not a non-issue is because there are those who will disagree with your answer to the question "Can you be saved without getting baptized." There are no examples of salvation in the book of Acts not being linked with baptism.
quote:
Can you be baptized without getting saved? Of course. It's called a bath. This seems to be a real issue. There are millions of professing Christians who have placed faith (I think maybe) in a baptism.
Sadly, this could be all too true.
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RE: Salvation by Faith? - 12/8/2008 9:37:09 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OleFitzHi
What is wrong with viewing baptism as a symbolic act of obedience?
I don't know that there's anything wrong with viewing baptism that way. Its just that baptism in Scripture is imbued with much more than simply symbolism and obedience. Not to say there is no symbolism or obedience, but there appears to be more to it than that.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation by Faith? - 12/9/2008 6:28:53 AM
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OleFitzHi
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In Scripture, what is baptism imbued with, over and above symbolism and obedience?
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: OleFitzHi
What is wrong with viewing baptism as a symbolic act of obedience?
I don't know that there's anything wrong with viewing baptism that way. Its just that baptism in Scripture is imbued with much more than simply symbolism and obedience. Not to say there is no symbolism or obedience, but there appears to be more to it than that.
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RE: Salvation by Faith? - 12/9/2008 8:18:37 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OleFitzHi
In Scripture, what is baptism imbued with, over and above symbolism and obedience?
For example, in Matthew 28:19-20 Jesus mentions baptism prior to and apart from teaching (which would result in obedience, hopefully). Jesus tells His disciples to go and make disciples of all nations. The fact that He mentions baptism as the first step in accomplishing that mission makes me think that there's something more to baptism than simply symbolism and obedience. Apparently baptism is not included in teaching since Jesus mentions baptism and teaching separately.
And in Acts 2:38 Peter indicates that forgiveness of sins and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit both occur during baptism. This is surely more than mere symbolism and obedience.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation by Faith? - 12/9/2008 10:18:20 AM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
I agree with you, until the words "plus nothing." I agree that we are justified by grace through faith, however, I see nowhere in Scripture where it says that we are justified by grace through faith, plus nothing...
Ephesians 2 essentially states that:
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would (AD)walk in them.
That passage indicates to me that human activity is not part of salvation.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Salvation by Faith? - 12/9/2008 12:03:34 PM
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crankius
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Ezra and Euty have already posted the Scriptures which first came to my mind.
Here are a few other instances worth considering in the topic:
In Acts 10 we see a living example of people receiving the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism. We also know that the thief on the cross was not baptized, yet was with Jesus in paradise on that day.
In Acts 10, Peter was preaching, and while he was speaking about Christ the Lord, the people were filled with the Holy Spirit. “While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message….they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.”
And in Acts 11, this is noted: Acts 11:16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, 'John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'
Titus 3:5-7 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
So, it's not the water of baptism which justifies us, washes us, renews us, or brings righteousness to us. Baptism is obedience and a public profession of Christ, symbolic of Christ's death and resurrection, but it is not what saves us.
Anyone who considers baptism as part of the work of salvation is only incurring more debt for themselves: Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
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Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Salvation by Faith? - 12/9/2008 5:52:05 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
I agree with you, until the words "plus nothing." I agree that we are justified by grace through faith, however, I see nowhere in Scripture where it says that we are justified by grace through faith, plus nothing...
Ephesians 2 essentially states that:
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would (AD)walk in them.
That passage indicates to me that human activity is not part of salvation.
I suppose that works if you consider baptism to be a human activity. However, I'm of the opinion that any activity, on the part of man, that goes on during baptism has no salvational value whatsoever. We are saved by grace through faith, after all, not because of baptism.
In any case I see nothing in these verses that makes void the numerous verses that speak about baptism.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation by Faith? - 12/9/2008 6:07:30 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Ezra and Euty have already posted the Scriptures which first came to my mind.
Here are a few other instances worth considering in the topic:
In Acts 10 we see a living example of people receiving the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism. We also know that the thief on the cross was not baptized, yet was with Jesus in paradise on that day.
Concerning Acts 10 we certainly do. Now the question is does speaking in tongues always indicate the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit? And if it does, are the thousands of people who never spoke in tongues, lost?
Of course, the thief on the cross was saved prior to the institution of Christian baptism so naturally he would be saved without it.
quote:
In Acts 10, Peter was preaching, and while he was speaking about Christ the Lord, the people were filled with the Holy Spirit. “While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message….they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.”
It may be that the people in Acts 10 were filled with the Holy Spirit, but the scripture you quoted doesn't quite say that. It says "the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message." In my mind the Holy Spirit coming on people and the Holy Spirit taking up residence within people are two entirely different activities of the Holy Spirit.
quote:
And in Acts 11, this is noted: Acts 11:16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, 'John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'
Exactly!! That meant that just has those whom John baptized in water were completely immersed in the water, so people would be completely immersed in the Holy Spirit. The fact that it's termed a baptism is merely a figure of speech. Jesus referred to the exact same activity of the Holy Spirit as "drinking of the Holy Spirit." Another figure of speech.
quote:
Titus 3:5-7 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
It is my belief that the "washing of regeneration" referred to in these verses is in fact baptism in water. Christian baptism is the only time in the Christian life that I can think of when anything remotely like washing takes place together with regeneration.
quote:
So, it's not the water of baptism which justifies us, washes us, renews us, or brings righteousness to us. Baptism is obedience and a public profession of Christ, symbolic of Christ's death and resurrection, but it is not what saves us.
You are correct in stating that it's not the water of baptism which justifies us, washes us (spiritually speaking anyway), renews us, or brigns righteousness. Although I do believe all those things occur when we are baptized, it's not the baptism itself that is doing it. Only God can accomplish those things in the life of a believer and I'm convinced that He chooses to do it when we are baptized in water.
quote:
Anyone who considers baptism as part of the work of salvation is only incurring more debt for themselves: Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Again, you are correct. I agree completely.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation by Faith? - 12/9/2008 6:16:23 PM
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crankius
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Examine the Acts 10 passage closely:
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
The gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out on them as they heard the word.
In Peter’s question, he acknowledges that they have already received the Holy Spirit, but still have not yet received the baptism.
The filling of the Holy Spirit happened prior to the baptism.
The baptism was important, but I think if one of them had dropped dead prior to the water baptism, they would have been justified/saved/redeemed and all that good stuff.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Salvation by Faith? - 12/9/2008 11:02:07 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1306
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
The gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out on them as they heard the word.
Absolutely. And the gift of the Holy Spirit that was poured on them was the gift of tongues.
quote:
In Peter’s question, he acknowledges that they have already received the Holy Spirit, but still have not yet received the baptism.
Precisely. They had received the gift of tongues just like the Apostles had on the day of Pentecost.
quote:
The filling of the Holy Spirit happened prior to the baptism.
No, the filling of the Holy Spirit didn't happen until they were baptized. Otherwise, Peter told a fib in Acts 2:38 when he told the people to be baptized and they would receive the Holy Spirit.
quote:
The baptism was important, but I think if one of them had dropped dead prior to the water baptism, they would have been justified/saved/redeemed and all that good stuff.
You are probably correct. But the fact is, none of them did drop dead so the point is rather moot.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation by Faith? - 12/11/2008 9:35:45 AM
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Linkoln
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Salvation is completely by grace through faith. Romans chapters 3-5 make this clear. A person is justified (made righteous before God) by faith alone. Look also into the book of Ephesians and 2:1-10 we see that the Apostle Paul also makes this claim.
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RE: Salvation by Faith? - 12/11/2008 10:46:09 AM
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DaveW
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This trying to subdivide things beyond what is clearly divided in scripture is IMO taking a wrong approach to scripture and faith. It is way too Greek.
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We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Salvation by Faith? - 12/12/2008 12:38:06 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Linkoln
Salvation is completely by grace through faith. Romans chapters 3-5 make this clear. A person is justified (made righteous before God) by faith alone. Look also into the book of Ephesians and 2:1-10 we see that the Apostle Paul also makes this claim.
I've read Romans 3-5 and I don't remember seeing the word "alone" anywhere in those chapters, but maybe I missed it. Nor did I see the word "alone" anywhere in Ephesians 2, either.
BTW I didn't stop reading at chapter 5 but went on the chapter 6 where Paul actually talks about baptism and it's purpose in our salvation.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Salvation by Faith? - 12/12/2008 6:29:44 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4161
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
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I would submit that instead of "salvation by works" or "salvation by faith," it is more "salvation by covenant."
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