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Please pardon my ignorance - 10/11/2008 2:23:04 AM
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pdvc19
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Could someone point out to me where in the Bible I can find the story of the man and woman that sold a field, but secretly held back some of the profit? I am too tired to remember, or my brain just isn't working anymore! Thanks.
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RE: Please pardon my ignorance - 10/11/2008 6:15:33 AM
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Liveloved
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I'm assuming you're referring to Ananias & Sapphira. The account is in Acts 5.
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RE: Please pardon my ignorance - 10/11/2008 10:30:31 AM
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flyboy2610
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That story has been used by some cults as proof that God wants people to turn over ALL their earthly possessions to the group. They tell their members that God will strike them dead if they don't, and use this passage as proof.
But that's not the point. Nowhere in Scripture do we find such a command from God. God wants us to share what we have with those who provide us with spiritual food, and he wants us to help care for those less fortunate than we are. But to surrender all that we have, under threat of death by God, is not found in Scripture.
The point of the story is that when we give to the Lord, we must do so out of a pure heart, willingly giving it to him in joy and thankfulness. Ananias and Sapphira did not do this. They pretended to give the entire price of the land, but kept some it for themselves.
Keeping back part of the price was not the problem. PRETENDING to give it all was! They wanted to have increased stature and respect ion the eyes of their fellow believers, and they lied in order to accomplish their selfish goals.
And that's why God struck them down.
_____________________________
If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.
Red Green
If you're going to live like there's no hell..... you'd better be right.
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RE: Please pardon my ignorance - 10/11/2008 11:12:53 AM
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pdvc19
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Thanks so much to you both...I'm much more awake this morning, and yes, that is the story I was referring to. The reason I wanted to see that passage is that my wife recently received a bonus from work, and wrote a check to the church for 10% of her "net" bonus check and not from the "gross." I was planning on using this story as a way of showing her that we should give with a "pure heart"...not holding back because the government takes a chunk of the money.
There are hundreds of places where we are told to give of the first fruits, so I believe we should have given 10% of the gross check. The reason I wanted to use Ananias & Sapphira is because it shows how God is not pleased with our gifts when we deliberately hold back for our own benefit.
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RE: Please pardon my ignorance - 10/11/2008 1:45:20 PM
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Bluethread
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As flyboy pointed out it is not the "holding back", but the deception. If your wife is upfront regarding offering the "net" then this passage does not apply. Regarding tithes, you might want to do a little more studying. Nowhere in the Scriptures are we told to give a tithe to "the church". This practice is derived from the tithe for the poor and the tithe for the Levite. The leaders of Roman-Catholics, seeing themselves as replacements for the Levites and the representatives of the poor, have applied the the tithe to themselves. When the protestants complained,they conveniently forgot to complain about this. Also, they forgot the pilgrimage tithe, to provide for the feasts.
In short, to chastise your wife for not giving a tithe on your gross income to "the church", while ignoring the tithe to the poor and the tithe for the feasts, is a little inconsistent.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Please pardon my ignorance - 10/11/2008 2:26:40 PM
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pdvc19
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Bluethread, with all due respect, nowhere in my post do I mention tithing, and nowhere do I mention "chastising" my wife. I agree completely with your comments regarding tithing and the church, and we consider all of our giving when looking at our tithing (including such things as Compassion International, etc.).
My point is that we agreed to write a check to our Church from this particular blessing, and the only thing that changed was the amount of the check.
I would not chastise my wife over this; rather, I am simply trying to make sure we are on the same page when it comes to giving. I cannot know what's in her heart. I only know that when we discussed giving to our Church, that I was envisioning 10% of the Gross check. We will have an honest discussion, and come to an agreement, I'm sure.
I hope you don't take my comments as being disrespectful as they are not intended in that manner. I just wanted to explain myself further. I really do appreciate your insight and thoughtfulness on this issue :)
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RE: Please pardon my ignorance - 10/11/2008 2:34:16 PM
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ta_mosquito
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"Tithe" = 10%. That's where he got the "tithe" from.
_____________________________
Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Please pardon my ignorance - 10/11/2008 2:39:22 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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Here's some more scripture to consider...
Luke 21: 1-4 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Please pardon my ignorance - 10/11/2008 2:39:29 PM
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Bluethread
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You did say 10%. I presumed you came to that number from the biblical tithe. Give whatever you agree upon. However, I would have to side with your wife on this one. As long as your honest about it, there are no requirements regarding giving to "the church".
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Please pardon my ignorance - 10/12/2008 12:09:09 AM
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Liveloved
Posts: 2069
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quote:
The reason I wanted to use Ananias & Sapphira is because it shows how God is not pleased with our gifts when we deliberately hold back for our own benefit.
pdvc19,
I am thankful your desire is to honor the Lord as well as your wife. That is wonderful to read about. And I hope you and your wife come to agreement on this. The Lord desires that we be generous and cheerful givers and it sounds like that is your desire as well. Ananias and Sapphira were being deceitful in their giving and that is what the Lord would not tolerate. Truthfulness is what He desires from us and that they would not give. Give to Him honestly, truthfully, generously and cheerfully and in agreement with your wife and He will be pleased. Bless you, LL
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RE: Please pardon my ignorance - 10/13/2008 2:02:22 AM
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pdvc19
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LiveLoved,
Thank you so much for your kind words. My wife and I did have an honest conversation, and are both on the same page.
I am often frustrated by these forums when intent is so hard to show. Sometimes us "one-stars" can feel ganged up on, so I really do appreciate you giving me the benefit of the doubt here. Life is great...Praise God!!
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RE: Please pardon my ignorance - 10/13/2008 2:01:39 PM
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phyl2
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quote:
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 2 Cor. 9:7
I'm glad you and your wife were able to come to an agreement, because it would not have been good for her to have been or felt coerced into giving an amount she was not ready to give.
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RE: Please pardon my ignorance - 10/13/2008 2:10:14 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3467
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From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pdvc19
LiveLoved,
Thank you so much for your kind words. My wife and I did have an honest conversation, and are both on the same page.
I am often frustrated by these forums when intent is so hard to show. Sometimes us "one-stars" can feel ganged up on, so I really do appreciate you giving me the benefit of the doubt here. Life is great...Praise God!!
LOL. We do get ganged up on in the forum world.
Bring up any question or topic and it pushes those "theology buttons."
A one-star can slug as hard as a five-star. lol.
Whether tithing or giving or whatever we want to call it,
[I do tithe] and the argument I came to grip in my own
life with myself is the difference in a "gross" or "net" calculation.
Of course, by the governments standards, I have always and still
am way below the poverty level. Yet, I live like a king.
Saying that, the difference in my net or gross is so small, I just feel
better giving that extra nickel or five dollars. And not only that, my
wife and I just round it off to the next higher dollar amount.
If the tithe is $4.60 we give $5.00, etc.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Please pardon my ignorance - 10/13/2008 6:09:30 PM
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pbaribeault
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Besides, the Ananias & Sapphira story wouldn't have made the point you wanted it to anyways. In that account, Peter clearly asks, "Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing?" It would have been better for them to "hold back" honestly, or never to have sold the land and pretended to give the proceeds. They did not owe that land or the money from it to God or the Apostles... neither all of it, nor part of it.
In the same way, your wife's entire (net) bonus belongs to you-two, and you may agree to give any part of it, based on any calculation without making it seem as if some calculation yields a less worthy offering than some other calculation.
The A&S story is about dishonesty & the Holy Spirit knowing when lies are being told to Him. Unless you think your wife is being dishonest, the A&S story has no relevance to your situation.
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RE: Please pardon my ignorance - 10/13/2008 10:28:17 PM
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Sharksman
Posts: 6
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To pdvc19
Are you talking about Ananias and Sapphira facing Peter in Acts Chap 5?
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RE: Please pardon my ignorance - 10/14/2008 12:35:49 AM
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pdvc19
Posts: 58
Joined: 12/10/2007
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Lapidoth,
quote:
A one-star can slug as hard as a five-star. lol.
Hey, check it out...apparently my lament about my "one-star" status was the catalyst for pushing me over the 25/26 threshold, and I am now a "two-star!"
I'll try to take it easy on all the one-stars now that I have matured in wisdom.
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RE: Please pardon my ignorance - 10/14/2008 12:37:14 AM
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pdvc19
Posts: 58
Joined: 12/10/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
Besides, the Ananias & Sapphira story wouldn't have made the point you wanted it to anyways. In that account, Peter clearly asks, "Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing?" It would have been better for them to "hold back" honestly, or never to have sold the land and pretended to give the proceeds. They did not owe that land or the money from it to God or the Apostles... neither all of it, nor part of it.
In the same way, your wife's entire (net) bonus belongs to you-two, and you may agree to give any part of it, based on any calculation without making it seem as if some calculation yields a less worthy offering than some other calculation.
The A&S story is about dishonesty & the Holy Spirit knowing when lies are being told to Him. Unless you think your wife is being dishonest, the A&S story has no relevance to your situation.
The reason I wanted to show my wife the A&S story is because I did not know what was in her heart. As you say, "It would have been better for them [A&S] to "hold back" honestly, or never to have sold the land and pretended to give the proceeds." Since the point of the story is about deception of giving/lying to God, I wanted to make sure she was clear in her heart about our giving.
I am satisified that her actions were in keeping with her intentions, so, as far as I am concerned, case closed.
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RE: Please pardon my ignorance - 10/14/2008 5:44:07 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pdvc19
Lapidoth,
quote:
A one-star can slug as hard as a five-star. lol.
Hey, check it out...apparently my lament about my "one-star" status was the catalyst for pushing me over the 25/26 threshold, and I am now a "two-star!"
I'll try to take it easy on all the one-stars now that I have matured in wisdom.
It's the # of x's u post that give u the stars...twinkle twinkle
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