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Only God knows that Day? - 10/8/2008 7:27:24 PM
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dantheman688
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It mentions in Matthew that nobody but the father knows when the Day of the Lord is. Not even the son (Jesus) Can somebody just explain to me why wouldn't Jesus know when that day would be. I realize that he is sitting at the right hand of God but isnt Jesus himself part of the father? So how wouldn't he know. Thanks in advance..
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RE: Only God knows that Day? - 10/8/2008 8:45:26 PM
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MrFribbles
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An excellent question, dantheman. : )
There are a couple of proposed solutions. I don't think anyone can really say for sure, but hey, conjecture is fun sometimes.
Some would say that, while on earth, Christ limited His knowledge to some extent. He still had some divine knowledge, obviously (how else could He have known what He did about the Samaritan woman at the well?), but some things, He might have chosen to abstain from knowing, for whatever reason. This could have been one of them. Then, upon His return to Heaven, He once again came into the knowledge.
Another possibility is recognizing that the different members of the Godhead serve different, but entirely equal, roles. By example, the Holy Spirit is the only person of the Godhead who indwells us, whereas Jesus is the only one who died on the cross, etc. Perhaps part of the Father's role is being the only one who knows when the end will come?
Those are just two possible answers. I'm sure there are others out there, too.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Only God knows that Day? - 10/8/2008 10:33:56 PM
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Ntech
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One minor error with your question there. Jesus Christ is not referring to the day of the Lord there in Matthew 24. Rather he is referring to verse 24-14. The first event of the end times or the first fig leaf of the fig tree parable later in the chapter.
Why the quibble? Because once that event happens you are supposed to able to figure it out. And the nearest I can figure 24-14 was fulfilled back in the 1930s or 40s.
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RE: Only God knows that Day? - 10/8/2008 11:31:18 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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I disagree with Ntech. And I have no idea what Ntech is referring to as the time of the end being in the 30's or 40's. The one 'seven' has yet to begin...
Furthermore, Jesus is referring to the Day of the Lord.
He obviously accepts the Father's authority in this matter.
We should too.
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RE: Only God knows that Day? - 10/9/2008 8:20:34 AM
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Ntech
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
I disagree with Ntech. And I have no idea what Ntech is referring to as the time of the end being in the 30's or 40's. The one 'seven' has yet to begin...
Furthermore, Jesus is referring to the Day of the Lord.
He obviously accepts the Father's authority in this matter.
We should too.
Well let me explain my position here.
To start with on May 15th 1948 a nation of Israel reappeared on the world scene. That event has been predicted directly and indirectly through a number of prophesies. And that could be considered a fig leaf according to the fig leaf parable in Matthew 24. But 24-14 is the first fig leaf. Which means that it had already opened by May 15 1948. Simple logic.
So is it possible that 24-14 is fulfilled? Yes! You merely have to look at the verse and determine the simplest interpretation of it. And the simplest interpretation is that only one person per nation/tribe/ethnic group is needed to fulfill the prophecy. But that wasn't physically possible until modern technology allowed missionaries to get the gospel out to the far remote corners of the world.
Now the problem is to determine the timeframe that Jesus Christ is talking about. And that is contained in verse 34.
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Now the problem is "How long is this generation he is referring to?"
Its not the normal concept of a generation which is approximatly 25 to 35 years. Israel has just celebrated it's 60th birthday. However there is 2 possibilities still remaining.
1. He is talking about the normal lifespan of human beings. Approximatly 70 to 80 years. Also in Psalms 90 70 to 80 years is given as a normal human lifespan. That could be what he meant by 24-34.
2. The lifespan of the last human being alive that was born in 1948 when the first fig leaf opened. Humans have the possibility of living up to 120 years if they avoid accidents and diseases. And with the advancements of medical sciences it may be possible to prolong it quite a bit longer than that.
The final seven years of the 70 weeks would happen at the end of the generation.
< Message edited by Ntech -- 10/9/2008 8:56:49 AM >
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RE: Only God knows that Day? - 10/9/2008 10:41:34 AM
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ta_mosquito
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Let's keep this on the topic of only God the Father knowing the day and hour. Discussion about WHEN that day and hour occur belong in other threads.
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RE: Only God knows that Day? - 10/9/2008 8:50:30 PM
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sanctificare
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To point out a specific thing that you said - it's also important to understand that Jesus is not a "part" of God. This is all a part of the immense incomprehensibility of the trinity that humans are limited in their understanding of. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all three-in-one. Not parts, but "persons." Jesus was fully God, and fully man.
As for "limiting" Himself to the knowledge of the Day - which we would naturally conclude to be the case if He is in fact God - I would have to agree with MrFribbles' conjectures on this.
_____________________________
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is - His good, pleasing and perfect will. [Romans 12:2]
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RE: Only God knows that Day? - 11/1/2008 2:45:50 PM
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jerowhy
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This is probably so that no one will not be discerning regarding events that lead up to the fig tree producing its full measure of fruits (grapes of Wrath across all time periods for He stands outside of time and is timeless), and yet also so that most false prophets could be proved false immediately. Almost all Prophecy has no date attached, excepting the Most valuable Prophecy of Daniel (successive rulers and then the war continues indefinitely whereby the Gospel is preached and many of the wise will stumble to be refined as written) which is of Angelic or Arch Angelic delivery.
Today is the day of Salvation, tomorrow is guaranteed to whom? The Only One.
Also, after Pentecost the disciples would ask that in accordance with The Testimony as written in Acts and The Gospels when He Was to set up His Reign as Messiah Prince of The Covenant at Jerusalem. Jesus Testified that My Kingdom is not of this world and that The Kingdom comes not by peoples careful attention or perception; but is at The Right Hand of God and The Power of God: The Kingdom is at Hand, or near you, or among the peoples in accordance with The Prophetic vision given to Jacob. Christ has that His Kingdom is Angelic descendings and ascendings to fight the evil powers that be in the heavenly realms as written: 'for apart from Me you can do nothing.' Your Kingdom Come on earth, as it is in Heaven. 'Their Angels always See The Face of The Father in Heaven.' Regarding any of God's Children found on earth or in Heaven above or those that rest to arise to receive their inheritance at The Resurrection and especially The Martyrs of God who await the culminating events to transpire as earth labors in pain and groans to give birth to The Coming of The Messiah.
Unawares to them they were intertaining Angels. For He makes His Servants to be ministering Spirits of fire and Holy Light on earth among the peoples.
quote:
ORIGINAL: dantheman688
It mentions in Matthew that nobody but the father knows when the Day of the Lord is. Not even the son (Jesus) Can somebody just explain to me why wouldn't Jesus know when that day would be. I realize that he is sitting at the right hand of God but isnt Jesus himself part of the father? So how wouldn't he know. Thanks in advance..
< Message edited by jerowhy -- 11/1/2008 3:26:09 PM >
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RE: Only God knows that Day? - 11/1/2008 10:20:09 PM
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SonicStudent
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I may be wrong here, but I always viewed it as this;
When Christ left the Father's right hand in heaven to come as a human child. He left all His knowledge behind.
Being pure from birth, when God's spirit told Him He was God's Son he believed it in faith. And from then on Christ studied the scriptures concerning all things including all things concerning Himself in the scriptures and believed, being of perfect faith and understanding.
He learned all that had been, was and was to be concerning all that the scriptures had to say, and whatever His Father's spirit informed Him. Remember, He often said that He listens to and does whatever His father tells Him. So when He received revelations about others, I'm sure it was through communication with His father.
He wasn't aware of all things, or else why would He often go to a private place to pray?
I believe he had no advantage on this earth and was only aware of all things through a pure faith and spotless life and so had an open doorway to learn all things from His Father.
The day and hour is not found in the holy scriptures, and it wasn't important at that time, during that dispensation for Jesus as the Son of men to know.
There may be more than this that someone else can throw some light on. I'd be interested to know myself. It is an interesting subject me thinks!
Thanks for an interesting question Dantheman
Sonic
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"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Only God knows that Day? - 11/2/2008 11:27:04 AM
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bob97
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Mat 24:36 "However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son Himself. Only the Father knows.
If the return of Christ occurs on Rosh Hashanah the statement that He made was very real in His time on earth. No man knew the exact time of the beginning of the Feast of the Trumpets and a watch was kept… when the new moon appeared the shofar was sounded to make the announcement. Certainly no man knows for sure the exact year. So the statement is not so strange at all.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Only God knows that Day? - 11/2/2008 2:22:55 PM
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SonicStudent
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Hi Bob,
Can you explain to me why these festivals are likely to see future events repeat themselves?
Or show me where there is a study of these festivals having significance in God's timing?
I've heard things about this being said, but not known much about it. I get the principle, but never seen it for myself anywhere!
Thanks
Sonic
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Only God knows that Day? - 11/2/2008 8:24:11 PM
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bob97
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Sonic… to begin with each major event of the Messiah’s first coming occurred on the precise date of the appropriate Jewish holiday;
The lamb for the Passover celebration is selected on the 10th day of 1st month, and Jesus was hailed as Messiah on His triumphant entry into Jerusalem on the exact day of the 10th of Nisan. The day of the preparation (Passover), is when the lamb is killed, the 14th of Nisan. Jesus was crucified for our sins as the Lamb of God on the exact 14th day of the 1st month. On the day after the weekly Sabbath during the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Firstfruits offering is made before God as a wave offering of a sheaf of the spring harvest. Jesus was raised from the dead and ascended to heaven on the exact day of Firstfruits, 3 days after being crucified. Finally, 50 days later on Pentecost (Shauvot), the two loaves of bread made from the spring harvest are waved before God at the altar. You know the answer, exactly on Pentecost, the Holy Spirit was poured out on born-again believers, the result of the shed blood of the Lamb and the accepted offering on Firstfruits.
If these events of prophecy regarding the First Coming were fulfilled on the exact day of the spring feasts doesn’t it stand to reason that the fall feasts will bring about the happenings of the second coming of Christ?
For a fuller understanding of these fall feast please read Why Rosh Hashanah IS the Rapture by Roy A. Reinhold @ http://ad2004.com/prophecytruths/Articles/FeastDays/RoshHashanah.html
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Only God knows that Day? - 11/3/2008 6:19:46 AM
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SonicStudent
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Wow wow wow, thanks Bob!
I was aware of bits of this, but didn't know it all had been fulfilled so precisely on these key days, wow wow wow yay!
Well yes, it would be foolish to think that God had been so precise to fulfil all this so accurately, and then didn't have a design for the tying up of all prophecy at the end and 2nd coming.
It sort of lends strength to the eclipse thingy too on key holidays. Not that we should trust external proofs seperate from God's word, but, well it does I think.
That's fantastic, and thanks for the link, me gonna do some study, yay.
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Only God knows that Day? - 11/3/2008 11:45:55 AM
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Diolectic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dantheman688
It mentions in Matthew that nobody but the father knows when the Day of the Lord is. Not even the son (Jesus) Can somebody just explain to me why wouldn't Jesus know when that day would be. In the flesh of His Earthly Ministry He did not know, but HE certanly does now.
Jesus at the Right Hand of the Father does know when Day of the Lord is.
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RE: Only God knows that Day? - 11/3/2008 1:31:53 PM
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SonicStudent
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Amen to that brother!
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Only God knows that Day? - 11/4/2008 3:24:40 AM
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Retrobyter
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Shalom, Diolectic.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
quote:
ORIGINAL: dantheman688
It mentions in Matthew that nobody but the father knows when the Day of the Lord is. Not even the son (Jesus) Can somebody just explain to me why wouldn't Jesus know when that day would be. In the flesh of His Earthly Ministry He did not know, but HE certanly does now.
Jesus at the Right Hand of the Father does know when Day of the Lord is.
Not that I'm necessarily disagreeing with you, but we know this HOW? (i.e., book, chapter, verse?)
Retrobyter
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RE: Only God knows that Day? - 11/4/2008 6:56:27 AM
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SonicStudent
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quote:
Not that I'm necessarily disagreeing with you, but we know this HOW? (i.e., book, chapter, verse?)
Maybe Christ did know, but God in His wisdom requested men not to know. If Jesus had said, 'oh don't worry, you got over 2000 years before you need to be worrying about that'! - I don't think men would live as urgently.
In Matt 24 it says that no man, nor the angels know, but doesn't say Jesus didn't know.
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Only God knows that Day? - 11/4/2008 10:35:28 AM
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DaveW
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Jesus also said "In my Father's house are many dwelling places," and "I go to prepare a place for you, that where I am you may be also." On Palm Sunday he said "O Jerusalem you who killed the prophets and stoned those I sent to you...You will not see me again until you say 'Baruch Haba B'shem Adonai.' " (Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord)
The father alone knowing the day, and these other statements ALL relate to the wedding customs of the day.
When a young man and woman were officially betrothed - usually arranged by the parents some years earlier - the young man would start to build a new wing on his father's house. This was expected to take about a year. When the father inspected his son's finished work and determined it was sturdy enough and big enough to house a new family, he would send the son to retrieve his bride. THis could be at any time day or night (not on shabbat) and it was her duty to be looking for him. She was supposed to see him coming from a distance and yell Baruch Haba B'shem Adonai to alert her family he was coming in time for them to prepare for his arrival. He would then take her immediatly with him to the new living place to be his wife. The next day a celebration would be held, sometimes lasting several days, if the family was wealthy.
Don't lose the overall picture of what was being said in technicalities: "Did he know?" "Did he not know?" That is unimportant.
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Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
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RE: Only God knows that Day? - 11/4/2008 12:27:40 PM
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Diolectic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Diolectic.quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolecticquote:
ORIGINAL: dantheman688
It mentions in Matthew that nobody but the father knows when the Day of the Lord is. Not even the son (Jesus) Can somebody just explain to me why wouldn't Jesus know when that day would be. In the flesh of His Earthly Ministry He did not know, but HE certainly does now.
Jesus at the Right Hand of the Father does know when Day of the Lord is. Not that I'm necessarily disagreeing with you, but we know this HOW? (i.e., book, chapter, verse?) 1: He wouldn't be one with the Father, be unified with the trinity if Jesus doesn't know.
2: There would be a disunity in the trinity if Jesus did not yet know.
3: The Trinity have the same mind, and knows everything that each other knows.
4: Jesus is God, if He didn't know, He wouldn't be fully God.
5: Jesus wouldn't be omniscient if He didn't know.
6: There is no reason that HE wouldn't know now.
7: Jesus was only limited in His flesh.
As for the "book, chapter, verse", all one needs here is commone sence.
< Message edited by Diolectic -- 11/4/2008 12:34:27 PM >
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RE: Only God knows that Day? - 11/4/2008 1:15:07 PM
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DaveW
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Common sense can change from generation to generation. It has been almost 2000 years since the NT was written. Different culture, different language, different logic system, etc. What we may consider common sense does not necessarily carry over to the bible.
Diolectic, your points fit well within our logic system; however I do not believe they carry as much in the hebraic logic of the bible, which is relational rather than abstract, and often circular, and can handle what we see as dichotomies with no trouble. Ancient writers (like the church fathers) who looked at some of those things but were steeped in Greko-Roman (aristotilian) logic dubbed them "mysteries."
In reality, we need chapter and verse because things don't always add up as we think they should.
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Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
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RE: Only God knows that Day? - 11/4/2008 1:42:32 PM
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mikejonesoftn
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Honestly, I'm looking for bible references that actually clearly says that Jesus is in fact God. I at the moment do not believe Jesus is exactly God, that they are the exact same person. That's why I think that Jesus does not know the day. Although I can not argue Jesus didn't know because he was in human form.
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RE: Only God knows that Day? - 11/4/2008 1:49:25 PM
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mikejonesoftn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonicStudent
quote:
Not that I'm necessarily disagreeing with you, but we know this HOW? (i.e., book, chapter, verse?)
Maybe Christ did know, but God in His wisdom requested men not to know. If Jesus had said, 'oh don't worry, you got over 2000 years before you need to be worrying about that'! - I don't think men would live as urgently.
In Matt 24 it says that no man, nor the angels know, but doesn't say Jesus didn't know.
It does however say "but My Father only"
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RE: Only God knows that Day? - 11/4/2008 2:46:32 PM
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SonicStudent
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Right you are, it does my brother
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Only God knows that Day? - 11/4/2008 3:20:32 PM
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DaveW
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
Mat 24:36 "However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son Himself. Only the Father knows. That is a clear example of what I said earlier. He can be omniscient but still not know this under biblical logic.
3 more things an all-knowing God does not know:
1 a sinner He does not love
2 a sin He does not hate
3 a better plan of salvation than what He presented to us in His Word.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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RE: Only God knows that Day? - 11/4/2008 3:23:18 PM
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Retrobyter
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Shalom, SonicStudent and mikejonesoftn.
quote:
ORIGINAL: mikejonesoftn
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonicStudent
quote:
Not that I'm necessarily disagreeing with you, but we know this HOW? (i.e., book, chapter, verse?)
Maybe Christ did know, but God in His wisdom requested men not to know. If Jesus had said, 'oh don't worry, you got over 2000 years before you need to be worrying about that'! - I don't think men would live as urgently.
In Matt 24 it says that no man, nor the angels know, but doesn't say Jesus didn't know.
It does however say "but My Father only"
Sorry, but the Olivet Discourse is ONE event that was recorded three ways. To get the whole picture of what was said, you must also take the parallel passages from Mark 13 and Luke 21 into account.
Mark's account of the Olivet Discourse DOES include the words "neither the Son" (Greek: "oude ho huios") in Mark 13:32.
Retrobyter
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