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Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/21/2008 6:10:09 PM
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jbow
Posts: 625
Joined: 2/16/2007
From: Dixie
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http://www.informz.net/pfm/archives/archive_688547.html
I like it...
quote:
Imagine if the parable of the Prodigal Son went something like this: After wasting his inheritance, the son returns to the father. But instead of repenting and asking the father to take him back as a slave, the son says, “Dad, I’ve made a mess of things. Could you spot me some cash so I can get out of this hole?”
He make's a lot of sense to me.
Julien
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/21/2008 6:11:51 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1298
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From: The Great Sioux Empire
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And, it's really not an automaker bailout, it's a UAW bailout.
_____________________________
Give a hoot, eat yer Lute, Der's no risk in Lutefisk.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/21/2008 10:13:29 PM
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Preludeian
Posts: 131
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From: Portland Metro Oregon
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I agree with HighPlains. As sad as it will be for all those guys to lose their jobs I would suspect many of them would take a job with the foreign companies that might offer them a job if they are willing to relocate to one of the plants. However, one might ponder if that would be a wise move considering they might try to spread the virus known as the UAW to the workers in those factories 
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/21/2008 11:35:46 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 3002
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From: Raleigh, NC
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The UAW has put the companies in a strangle-hold where a worker can be "laid-off" but them report to a "job bank" where he can collect up to 80% of his former pay for doing nothing,
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/22/2008 9:23:59 AM
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redeemedsaint
Posts: 494
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We are wasting money by putting it in the auto bailout. Money will not solve the problem. It's too much union control. They need to build vehicles that we want to buy.
_____________________________
Woody
Get off the track cause the freight train is coming - Coach Bobby Lee Duke from Facing the Giants
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/22/2008 10:58:54 AM
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iampiper13
Posts: 71
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From: Maryland
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oh good I'm not the only person to feel that unions have passed their usefulness?
_____________________________
God Bless
Steve
Psalms 138:3 CEV When I asked for your help, you answered my prayer and gave me courage.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/22/2008 11:17:55 AM
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rlj
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I'm going to say it... I'm going to say it... but yes Unions have almost universally passed their usefulness. Yes I'm thankful for 40 hour work weeks, an end to child labor laws, workman's comp and such but really they're killing themselves now.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/22/2008 11:25:04 AM
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iampiper13
Posts: 71
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From: Maryland
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this is just my opinion (no real facts to base it on) but its seems unions were at their best when they were controlled by the mob, but now it seems to be lawyers and are out of control.
_____________________________
God Bless
Steve
Psalms 138:3 CEV When I asked for your help, you answered my prayer and gave me courage.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/22/2008 3:19:08 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2022
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
I'm going to say it... I'm going to say it... but yes Unions have almost universally passed their usefulness. Yes I'm thankful for 40 hour work weeks, an end to child labor laws, workman's comp and such but really they're killing themselves now.
I wouldn't say that they've outlived their usefulness. I'd say that some unions have been ineffective and in some cases, gotten too big for their britches. I'm certain that without unions, certain industries would quickly revert back to a state where employees are basically disregarded and exploited. Unions don't just fight for exorbitant pension benefits and assembly-line tenure. The also serve as a professional guild, helping to support standards of professional qualifications and competence as well as realistic wages. I'm thinking of industries where the majority of the workers are independent contractors, for example: plumbers, electricians, and stagehands. I won't say that unions always price or organize things appropriately, but w/o them, people in these industries would all find themselves racing to the bottom, losing work to the lowest bidder. Then the only people making money would be those at the very top.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/22/2008 5:45:41 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1755
Joined: 4/8/2005
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quote:
I wouldn't say that they've outlived their usefulness. I'd say that some unions have been ineffective and in some cases, gotten too big for their britches. I'm certain that without unions, certain industries would quickly revert back to a state where employees are basically disregarded and exploited. Unions don't just fight for exorbitant pension benefits and assembly-line tenure. The also serve as a professional guild, helping to support standards of professional qualifications and competence as well as realistic wages. I'm thinking of industries where the majority of the workers are independent contractors, for example: plumbers, electricians, and stagehands. I won't say that unions always price or organize things appropriately, but w/o them, people in these industries would all find themselves racing to the bottom, losing work to the lowest bidder. Then the only people making money would be those at the very top.
Unions have become a victim of their own success. They have served a useful purpose, but they have shown the too much is never enough. Having worked for several unions, the one common thing I have seen is they they stifle incentive. Employees who enter the system with a desire to move up, to assume greater responsibilities are brought down by the brotherhood. Sort of like a crab getting out of the pot, the crabs below pull the escaping crab back into the water.
I f unions went away, I don't think we would revert back to the sweatshop standards that brought about unions in the first place. There are still enough smart worker bees who would remind the rest of the workers of history and threaten to reform unions. If unsions are going ot remain, they are going to have to be less greedy and keep in mind that they cannot be a parasite that bleeds its host dry.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/22/2008 7:33:20 PM
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litfire2000
Posts: 267
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Unions have good points and bad points. But let's not forget, that when the auto makers signed those contracts with the unions, they were in effect saying "...we can afford to do this". Now they're crying that the unions are ruining the country and driving them out of business. The union's demands have gotten out of control and their greed has helped drive down viability, but management did not take a strong stand in negotiating with them. Plus, management made other questionable decisions. There is plenty of blame to go around on both sides.
_____________________________
Ps. 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/23/2008 7:12:16 AM
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martyfran
Posts: 605
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What I don't understand is why so many people are quick to say that the unions are overpaid, but not the management. The CEO's of these companies made $20 million last year. Now that might be reasonable if the company was profitable, but $20 million to run a company into the ground is a bit steep.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/23/2008 9:42:08 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2022
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
I wouldn't say that they've outlived their usefulness. I'd say that some unions have been ineffective and in some cases, gotten too big for their britches. I'm certain that without unions, certain industries would quickly revert back to a state where employees are basically disregarded and exploited. Unions don't just fight for exorbitant pension benefits and assembly-line tenure. The also serve as a professional guild, helping to support standards of professional qualifications and competence as well as realistic wages. I'm thinking of industries where the majority of the workers are independent contractors, for example: plumbers, electricians, and stagehands. I won't say that unions always price or organize things appropriately, but w/o them, people in these industries would all find themselves racing to the bottom, losing work to the lowest bidder. Then the only people making money would be those at the very top.
Unions have become a victim of their own success. They have served a useful purpose, but they have shown the too much is never enough. Having worked for several unions, the one common thing I have seen is they they stifle incentive. Employees who enter the system with a desire to move up, to assume greater responsibilities are brought down by the brotherhood. Sort of like a crab getting out of the pot, the crabs below pull the escaping crab back into the water.
I f unions went away, I don't think we would revert back to the sweatshop standards that brought about unions in the first place. There are still enough smart worker bees who would remind the rest of the workers of history and threaten to reform unions. If unsions are going ot remain, they are going to have to be less greedy and keep in mind that they cannot be a parasite that bleeds its host dry.
I suppose it depends on the specific union, industry, and rules. I'm coming at this more from the angle of unionized contractors like I mentioned earlier, rather than unionized factory workers. From what I've seen working in the entertainment industry, things would go bad FAST for stagehands and other crew. Wages and standards for labor and safety would nosedive. It's already a problem among the non-unionized PA & staging providers - everybody trying to undercut everybody else so nobody can make money and lots of people putting up stages that are dangerous.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/23/2008 9:42:48 AM
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ekserekseez
Posts: 693
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So who is Chuck Colson?
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/23/2008 9:46:09 PM
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chasbeck1
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As one who has retired from General Motors after 31.5 years, I can honestly say that I have seen both good and bad from both sides. When times were good, everybody was fat and happy. As the company made more money, the unions pushed for more perks for the workers. But union protectionism got to the point where workers could get away with doing as little work as possible and still get a paycheck. I worked the assembly line for many years, believe me it's no picnic doing the same thing over and over day in and day out. It takes it's toll on the body. The bottom line is that greed on both sides took over. The union has done allot as far as getting good health and saftey regulations put in place. People have lost sight of the future, in the midst of their political posturing. I saw the company and union officials making some good gains in attempting to turn the company around. It's just that the bottom fell out of the financial markets so fast that no one saw it coming. There is much finger pointing going on but I feel that big government in Washington needs to shoulder the lions share of the blame. If the housing market had not collapsed then the auto industry would not be in the shape it's in now. If these companies fail then the impact on the rest of the nation will be very dire. The American workforce is the best and most
hightly skilled in the world. The auto idustry needs to be kept viable.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/24/2008 10:22:41 AM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ekserekseez
So who is Chuck Colson?
Colson is a convicted felon from the Nixon administration. he wrote a book called Born Again about his spiritual conversion. He is well-known among older fundamentalists and conservatives.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/24/2008 2:53:45 PM
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ekserekseez
Posts: 693
Joined: 7/3/2008
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Thanks! I know exactly who he is now. Didn't know he was a religious type too.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/24/2008 3:48:34 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7594
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Colson is a convicted felon from the Nixon administration. he wrote a book called Born Again about his spiritual conversion. He is well-known among older fundamentalists and conservatives.
I think you underplayed his life a bit.
After he served his sentence (a result of his guilty plea, which he may have avoided if he fought it) he founded Prison Fellowship, to which he devotes all his book royalties, which are considerable. He has been awarded numerous awards as well as a number of honarary doctorates, and he has written 23 books.
He is in many ways a seminal Christian figure.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/24/2008 4:14:03 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1086
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
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True, but I don't think those two are interested in the Christian part, only the convicted felon part.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Colson is a convicted felon from the Nixon administration. he wrote a book called Born Again about his spiritual conversion. He is well-known among older fundamentalists and conservatives.
I think you underplayed his life a bit.
After he served his sentence (a result of his guilty plea, which he may have avoided if he fought it) he founded Prison Fellowship, to which he devotes all his book royalties, which are considerable. He has been awarded numerous awards as well as a number of honarary doctorates, and he has written 23 books.
He is in many ways a seminal Christian figure.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/24/2008 4:54:20 PM
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ekserekseez
Posts: 693
Joined: 7/3/2008
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quote:
True, but I don't think those two are interested in the Christian part, only the convicted felon part.
I find it sort of interesting. I didn't know about it.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/24/2008 6:15:08 PM
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demolay
Posts: 94
Joined: 10/31/2008
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I've worked as an engineer in Texas for a long time, and we don't see many unions here. But I was introduced to them on a job in Florida, where both the engineers and the techs were unionized. We had to hook up a cable to some existing equipment, just 2 wires. But because of "union rules" WE couldn't do it; we had to call for a union tech onsite. Then, an hour later when he showed up, he looked at "the job" and had to call a union engineer to "supervise"; again, "union rules". Finally, almost 2 hours later, we got the 2 wires punched down while the union engineer stood around and shot the breeze. I remember thinking then, if this were a job that faced free-market competition (it was a gov. job), no way could this organization compete.
So it doesn't surprise me at all to hear unionized auto makers can't compete. If they fail, the worst that will happen is we may get competitive factories in their place (probably non-union). As to fears of a race to wages to the ground, I think that's just fear-mongering. I've never worked for a union, and my wages have been fine. However I did have to work hard to show I was worth my pay.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/24/2008 6:59:59 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 3002
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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With the improvement of robotics a good portion of the line work can be automated. And robots don't require health benefits and 12 weeks of paid vacation.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/25/2008 2:16:41 AM
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ekserekseez
Posts: 693
Joined: 7/3/2008
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quote:
With the improvement of robotics a good portion of the line work can be automated.
I wonder if this would work with Congress.
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/25/2008 8:49:16 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2942
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quote:
I wonder if this would work with Congress.
I guess it could. All we need to program the robots to stamp " bail out approved", "borrow from other countries" and "raise taxes".
Not sure if it's the federal reserve we would have with the stamp saying "print more money" or not?
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RE: Chuck Colson on the automaker bailout - 11/25/2008 8:53:05 AM
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ekserekseez
Posts: 693
Joined: 7/3/2008
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quote:
Not sure if it's the federal reserve we would have with the stamp saying "print more money" or not?
No, they'd just have a stamp with "$100" and a picture of Ben Franklin on it.
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