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Being baptised on behalf of the dead? - 10/12/2008 10:23:26 PM
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Giulia
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From: Giulia
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In 1 Co 15 Paul is talking to the Corinthians about the first and second Adam, about the physical and spiritual and about everything going under the subjection of Christ in the resurrection. In verse 29 he mentions " Otherwise what do people mean by being baptised on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptised on their behalf?"
Now I have always had an idea or an inclination to believe this. Covering someone who does not believe or doing for one who does not believe or standing in intercession for them if they fall short. I have never seen this. Did they have a custom where people would be baptised for someone else? Certainly doesn't get spoken of these days. I think people are responsible for themselves to some extent. I also think pastors have a responsibility as do the angels. I am familiar with the practice of interceding for someone but I have never heard this mentioned. Anyone got any thoughts on this?
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RE: Being baptised on behalf of the dead? - 10/12/2008 10:32:30 PM
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NotDoneYet
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Try the Mormons...they do the "baptism for the dead" thing...
NDY
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RE: Being baptised on behalf of the dead? - 10/14/2008 1:25:59 AM
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Giulia
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quote:
1 Cor. 15:29
Some believers were baptised on behalf of others who had died unbaptized. Nothing more is known about this practice, but it obviously affirms a belief in resurrection. Paul is not promoting baptism for the dead; he is illustrating his argument that the resurrection is a reality.
i realise he is not promoting it and he was actually talking about the resurrection and bodies we take on for that. he does, however mention being baptised on behalf of the dead. This is NOT THE BOOK OF MORMONS. It is the HOLY BIBLE. I'm not just making this up from some fantastic part of my imagination, this is from Paul's words. Do we just shy away from things we don't already have enforced?
I have found that most things which most "Christians" don't understand, they demonise. Then when I ask a question it seems no one knows. it's just not the done "Christian" thing. This does not equate with the sound mind we were give in Christ. In fact it does not equate to being a Christian if all the Christians I ask are too scared to go there. Actually not sure if it's fear or ignorance. Either way Christians never want to admit they don't know about something. They just go on and any questioning is often not welcomed cause it will mess with the theology. That annoys me soooooo much!
quote:
Try the Mormons...they do the "baptism for the dead" thing... If you read my post I wasn't talking about the Mormons. This is in the Holy Bible, just though I'd repeat myself in case I am not speaking clearly.
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RE: Being baptised on behalf of the dead? - 10/14/2008 2:44:25 AM
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agapetos
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Is Paul actually saying that this should be done or is he saying that this is a practice that is carried out by some in the hopes that it should do some good for the desceased?
I think that you need to read the whole book of 1 Corinthians and understand the context that it was set in to understand this paragraph. The church that had been established hadn't protected itself from the outside immoratily of Corinth and had so suffered for it.
I'm not convinced that taking a couple of verses and expecting to understand them, without looking at the whole letter in context is always a good idea. When we receive letters (or these days, emails!) we read the whole thing, we don't just take one sentance and try and understand the whole.
Baptism for the dead sounds a wonderful idea. People that we've loved and have died without knowing Christ stand a chance of making it to heaven because we were baptised for them. How cool is that?
But then couldn't we all agree with our friends and relatives that if we are the first to die, they will be baptised for us, so we'll be ok and the reverse? How then would we live?
But as an ex-Mormon, perhaps I'm just cynical?
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RE: Being baptised on behalf of the dead? - 10/14/2008 7:09:19 AM
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Little_1
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Someone has already said that we should not take texts out of their context because there is a very real danger that we can misinterpret individual texts outwith their original context and this is sound advice. Furthermore, it is also good to allow Scripture to interpret Scripture......
quote:
-- The Bible
Ephesians 2:6
"And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus..."
1 Corintians 15:29
"Otherwise what do people mean by being baptised on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptised on their behalf?"
Those who know the Lord Jesus are living in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus. We have been raised to this position in Christ and through God - it is our privilege now and what a privilege it is, e.g. we can come straight into God's throne room for mercy, forgiveness, healing, guidance, to praise and worship God, etc, etc......
This is why Paul says, "Otherwise what do people mean by being baptised on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are people being baptised on their behalf?" Paul is not referring to there being no resurrection (that is not what he is saying here) but he is saying that there are those who have not been 'raised with Christ in life' by the Holy Spirit and that it is pointless carrying out this practise on the behalf of such as a means to the remission of their sins!
"If the dead are not raised at all" is not a question it is a statement; however, "why then are people being baptised on their behalf?" is a question (and it makes all the difference in interpretation when we read it in its correct context).
Therefore, when we interpret Scripture with Scripture, we will find that we cannot be baptised on behalf of another for the remission of their sins (neither dead or alive) - the Bible just does not teach this anywhere.
< Message edited by Little_1 -- 10/14/2008 7:20:24 AM >
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RE: Being baptised on behalf of the dead? - 10/14/2008 7:28:43 AM
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Giulia
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It's obvious. Those of Jesus Christ are those of the resurrection; those who have taken part of the death and subsequent resurrection.
I think that it is curious how Paul mentioned it so nonchalantly. Or if he referred it, in fact, as common practice of the church.
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RE: Being baptised on behalf of the dead? - 10/14/2008 7:38:34 AM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Giulia
In 1 Co 15 Paul is talking to the Corinthians about the first and second Adam, about the physical and spiritual and about everything going under the subjection of Christ in the resurrection. In verse 29 he mentions “Otherwise what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?"
Now I have always had an idea or an inclination to believe this. Covering someone who does not believe or doing for one who does not believe or standing in intercession for them if they fall short. I have never seen this. Did they have a custom where people would be baptized for someone else? Certainly doesn't get spoken of these days. I think people are responsible for themselves to some extent. I also think pastors have a responsibility as do the angels. I am familiar with the practice of interceding for someone but I have never heard this mentioned. Anyone got any thoughts on this?
quote:
Covering someone who does not believe or doing for one who does not believe or standing in intercession for them if they fall short.
That’s not far off because
The unbeliever is sanctified because Christ is in the world; forget about the marriage part of it an look at the principal of it, The 2 analogies’ are incorporated in what Paul mentioned in 1 Cor 7, concerning the roles of marriage.....
Christ died for the “whole” world,
So Covering someone who does not believe or doing for one who does not believe or standing in intercession for them if they fall short concerning unbelievers…. is a type of satisfaction; it sets them apart “for salvation “and from the wrath of God… as along as they are willing…if not… its like walking out from under the umbrella into the coming storm.
Baptism has to be done while one is living, and the scripture about Adam is that Adam died once…what they speak of is of the second death, they believe that one can be saved from the second death by having someone living take the baptism for that dead one and there is absolute no scripture to even suggest that, not even in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
quote:
I am familiar with the practice of interceding for someone but I have never heard this mentioned. Anyone got any thoughts on this?
The rest of that stuff above concerning that belief is just plain garbage, and leans more towards Satanic or the world view.
Only the devil believes he can beat the second death, the Bible says otherwise 
LG
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RE: Being baptised on behalf of the dead? - 10/14/2008 7:43:54 AM
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Little_1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Giulia
......I think that it is curious how Paul mentioned it so nonchalantly. Or if he referred it, in fact, as common practice of the church.
I think Paul (and God) were concerned about this practice or else it would not have been recorded in Scripture. Such baptisms were happening in places in Corinth (although they weren't overly common). I do believe that Paul obeyed the Lord in saying what he did and that he left the outworking of what the Lord laid upon his heart with the Holy Spirit to continue to shine Light upon to those concerned or intrigued by this sort of happenings.
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RE: Being baptised on behalf of the dead? - 10/14/2008 8:52:32 AM
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earthless
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Baptism for the dead is a non-biblical practice where a living person is baptized in lieu of a person that passed away, as a means of making a public profession of faith for a person that was already deceased.
We can, essentially, think of it as the practice of baptizing a dead person.
The practice has as its basis the misinterpretation of Corinthians 15:29: “Otherwise, what will they do, those being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not at all raised, why indeed are they baptized on behalf of the dead?”
This is a difficult passage to interpret, but we do know by comparing it with the rest of Scripture that it does not mean that a dead person can be saved by being baptized by someone else, because baptism is not a requirement for salvation in the first place (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 3:28; 4:3; 6:3-4).
The entire passage (verses 12-29) is about the surety of the resurrection, not about baptism for the dead.
What was being baptized for the dead? It is a mysterious passage, and there have been more than thirty different attempts to interpret it.
The plain meaning of the Greek in verse 29 is that some people are being baptized on behalf of those who have died—and if there is no resurrection, why are they doing this?
Either Paul is referring to a pagan custom (notice he uses they, not "we"), or to a superstitious and unscriptural practice in the Corinthian church of vicarious baptism for believers who died before being baptized.
Either way, he certainly does not approve of the practice; he merely says that if there is no resurrection, why would the custom take place?
The Mormon practice of baptism for the dead is neither scriptural or sensible. Baptism for the dead is a practice that was common in the pagan religions of Greece and is still practiced today by some cults; but it doesn't change a person's eternal destiny, for that is determined while he lives (Luke 16:26).
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RE: Being baptised on behalf of the dead? - 10/14/2008 10:24:27 AM
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steve7150
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quote:
In 1 Co 15 Paul is talking to the Corinthians about the first and second Adam, about the physical and spiritual and about everything going under the subjection of Christ in the resurrection. In verse 29 he mentions " Otherwise what do people mean by being baptised on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptised on their behalf?"
I think "of the dead" refers to Christ himself since the whole topic of this chap is Christ.
We get baptized into Christ (the dead who was raised). That's the reason Paul did'nt explain anything because he was referring to the same thing he did in the entire chapter which is Christ himself.
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RE: Being baptised on behalf of the dead? - 10/14/2008 4:14:25 PM
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Giulia
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From: Giulia
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quote:
Baptism has to be done while one is living, and the scripture about Adam is that Adam died once…what they speak of is of the second death, they believe that one can be saved from the second death by having someone living take the baptism for that dead one and there is absolute no scripture to even suggest that, not even in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
Where does it say this?
quote:
Baptism for the dead is a non-biblical practice where a living person is baptized in lieu of a person that passed away, as a means of making a public profession of faith for a person that was already deceased.
How is it non biblical when I got the idea from the bible?
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RE: Being baptised on behalf of the dead? - 10/14/2008 4:39:37 PM
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crankius
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quote:
How is it non biblical when I got the idea from the bible?
The whole of Scripture doesn't agree with the doctrine of baptism for the dead.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment
We have one life, and then the judgment. No amount of baptism after our death will bring salvation.
A person who believes Paul is advocating baptism for the dead must take the verse out of context, twist it to their own liking, and ignore the rest of what Scripture teaches.
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RE: Being baptised on behalf of the dead? - 10/14/2008 6:59:29 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
A person who believes Paul is advocating baptism for the dead must take the verse out of context, twist it to their own liking, and ignore the rest of what Scripture teaches.
Exactly - it's taking one reference of conversation to make a point - taking out on its own and trying to make it walk on all fours.
Giulia - may I please refer you to the rest of my response/post for the remainder of your questions.
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RE: Being baptised on behalf of the dead? - 10/14/2008 7:24:06 PM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Giulia
quote:
Baptism has to be done while one is living, and the scripture about Adam is that Adam died once…what they speak of is of the second death, they believe that one can be saved from the second death by having someone living take the baptism for that dead one and there is absolute no scripture to even suggest that, not even in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
Where does it say this?
Because we are all “spiritually dead”… since the fall,(once)…. and when one dies in that condition; that is what is mentioned as the second death.
The baptism of John is fulfilled in Christ…. and the order is “from death” (“spiritually dead”…) to life.
LG
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Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Being baptised on behalf of the dead? - 10/14/2008 11:13:43 PM
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bravjim
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I cannot say for sure, because the way you are saying it sure sounds like they were practicing people being baptized like they were doing it in lieu of a dead person. Go back and read the entire chapter, which talks about some who did not believe in the resurrection of the dead. My translation is pretty similar in suggesting that some were baptized for the dead. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, because it is by faith that we will rise again, and if someone has died without faith in Christ, then being baptized for them doesn't make a lot of sense. Kind of makes me wonder if these people were practicing this in hope that by getting baptized as a substitution it would be sufficient for them to be raised by Christ. It kind of goes against Paul's teaching. There may be some scripture that we are missing that would explain this, but I had never caught this before. Perhaps you should check out some other translations that might explain it better.
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RE: Being baptised on behalf of the dead? - 10/14/2008 11:20:07 PM
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bravjim
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My bible study says this concerning this verse: "It may be that some of the Corinthians had for some reason been baptized for others who had died without baptism. Paul did not approve or disapprove of the unusual practice, though he used "they" rather than "we" when speaking of it. if the dead do not rise...Why then are they baptized: To deny the resurrection, as the Corinthians did, and yet be involved in such baptism activities made no sense.
If you have other translations or bible study notes at the bottom of your bible, see if it agrees with mine. If not, post what it does say so we can all get a clearer understanding.
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RE: Being baptised on behalf of the dead? - 10/14/2008 11:37:10 PM
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ta_mosquito
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Giulia
quote:
Baptism for the dead is a non-biblical practice where a living person is baptized in lieu of a person that passed away, as a means of making a public profession of faith for a person that was already deceased.
How is it non biblical when I got the idea from the bible?
Just because something is recorded in the Bible doesn't make it "biblical" in the sense of being correct. David committed adultery; this is in the Bible, but committing adultery is a sin. Peter denied Jesus 3 times. This is in the Bible, but it isn't "biblical" to deny Christ.
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RE: Being baptised on behalf of the dead? - 10/15/2008 8:54:13 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
Just because something is recorded in the Bible doesn't make it "biblical" in the sense of being correct. David committed adultery; this is in the Bible, but committing adultery is a sin. Peter denied Jesus 3 times. This is in the Bible, but it isn't "biblical" to deny Christ.
Good point, Tricia.
Personally, I think that Paul was using baptism for the dead to make his point. I don't believe by using it for that purpose that he was saying that it was a practice that was correct or one that all Christians should or could do.
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RE: Being baptised on behalf of the dead? - 10/15/2008 1:42:34 PM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: misty35
quote:
ORIGINAL: bravjim
My bible study says this concerning this verse: "It may be that some of the Corinthians had for some reason been baptized for others who had died without baptism. Paul did not approve or disapprove of the unusual practice, though he used "they" rather than "we" when speaking of it. if the dead do not rise...Why then are they baptized: To deny the resurrection, as the Corinthians did, and yet be involved in such baptism activities made no sense.
If you have other translations or bible study notes at the bottom of your bible, see if it agrees with mine. If not, post what it does say so we can all get a clearer understanding.
quote:
1 Cor. 15:29
Some believers were baptized on behalf of others who had died un-baptized.
Nothing more is known about this practice, but it obviously affirms a belief in resurrection.
Paul is not promoting baptism for the dead; he is illustrating his argument that the resurrection is a reality.
That’s what mine says.
29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour?
In verse 30 Paul compares the analogy to being dangerous with what will those do who are baptized for the dead? in compassion v30 why do we endanger “ourselves every hour,”
Verse 32 Paul relates that to human reasons... in keeping of that bad company in v33 corrupts good character,
comparing himself in the first person in verse 32 If "I" fought wild beasts and then comparing all of them as a whole saying ...well then…..Let "us" eat and drink = together!
This means all get sucked up into the same corrupt character concerning human reasoning of Christ being raised from the dead… or concerning those who are baptized “for” the dead.
31 I die every day--I mean that, brothers--just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord.
32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained?
If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."
33 Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character."
Verse 34 speaks for itself.
34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God--I say this to your shame.
After breaking it down I agree with: misty35
Paul is not promoting baptism for the dead; he is illustrating his argument that the resurrection is a reality. …
…but for us,
For "each individual"; “and” as a whole "everyday….= for the living!.... we die everyday =whereby bad company cannot corrupt, therefore….
31 “I”… die every day--I mean that, brothers--just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord.
And we read it over and over again verse 31 is saying that Paul dies for the living...for them! = saying……just as surely "as “I glory”... over you "= glory = I die every day.... FOR you ....the living!
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Being baptised on behalf of the dead? - 10/17/2008 8:42:02 AM
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Giulia
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From: Giulia
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I had never seen that before. Or I had but it hadn't computed. Interesting to learn.
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RE: Being baptised on behalf of the dead? - 10/17/2008 2:47:36 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
The whole of Scripture doesn't agree with the doctrine of baptism for the dead.
That's true which is why Paul probably meant being baptised for Christ because it was he who had been dead.
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